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Just Finished Bathroom Remodel (Thank You; Third Time's a Charm)

posted by: KevinMP on 04.20.2012 at 09:04 am in Bathrooms Forum

Two months ago, I began planning to remodel the only bathroom (110 square feet) in my house (c. 1826). There was a lot of fear and apprehension, and I often found myself looking for answers on this forum. You don't know how helpful you were, and to the extent I can be helpful to anyone, please let me know.
I'll try to post pictures, but I have no idea how to do it, so we'll see.

But here's what I ended up using:

Floor (9"x18" honed calacatta gold with dove gray TEC grout and Nuheat mat with Solo thermostat)

Vanity (it's made by Silkroad Exclusive and called Tenino on some websites; I got it on eb_ay for $900 delivered, removed the top and sinks, and hardware and replaced them with two Kohler Archer undermount sinks, 2 cm antique brown granite in a leathered finish, and cabinet hardware from Restoration Hardware)

Mirrors (they are from Lowes (I believe from the "Fanella" collection)

Lighting (five 40 W pot lights and 1 sconce (the Nolan single sconce with linen shade from Restoration Hardware)

Tub (Mirabelle Edenton 30"x60" acrylic thermal air bath (only sold at Ferguson, and has huge interior dimensions (bigger than most 34"x66" tubs I tried and cheaper (by half) and bigger inside than the 36"x60" Hydrosystems Lacey I was looking at))

Shower (same honed calacatta gold time and grout on the walls and niche, cheap but well matching 2"x2" square mosaic tiles from Home Depot in Grecian White (I had to pick through many boxes to get ones that matched, but it saved me $250 off of the calacatta gold), two Kohler body sprays (K-8002 (54 nozzles each), two Kohler volume controls (one for the shower head and one for the body sprays), the new Kohler Katalyst shower head, Oatey liner and drain)

Shower door and glass for knee wall (not in yet, but they will be Starphire glass)

Replaced the window with a 34"x53" 400 series casement window by Andersen with snap-in grille)

Jacuzzi Prestige toilet

Fixtures (with matching Kohler valves) (all Kohler Pinstripe Pure (two faucets, tub spout and wall-mount valves, shower head, thermostatic valve trim, volume control trim, and shower door handles)

Paint (all Benjamin Moore Aura Bath and Spa Paint (Matte); walls Mount Saint Anne (1565) and trim and ceiling White Dove (OC-17))

Before:

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After:

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Enjoy.

NOTES:

nice faucet Kohler
clipped on: 05.30.2012 at 10:04 am    last updated on: 05.30.2012 at 10:05 am

New To Kitchens? Posting Pics? Read Me! [Help keep on Page 1]

posted by: buehl on 04.07.2012 at 01:17 pm in Kitchens Forum

Welcome! If you are new to the Kitchens Forum, you may find the following information and links helpful.

The Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)/Articles pages contain helpful information about how to navigate this site as well as the world of kitchen renovations.

The Kitchen Forum Acronyms will help you understand some of the acronyms used frequently in posts.

The Finished Kitchens Blog has pictures and information about many GW members' finished kitchens. Not only can you see them alphabetically, but there is also a category list if you're looking for specific things like a kitchen w/a Beverage Center or a kitchen w/a mix of dark and light cabinets. Access the FKB Categories Page via a link in the navigation panel on the right of any FKB page. Additionally, there is also a link to "In-Progress Kitchens" for those members' kitchens that are not quite ready for the FKB. There is also a link to "Coming Soon Kitchens" for those kitchens that are ready for the FKB but have not yet been added. To access the "In-Progress Kitchens", the "Coming Soon Kitchens", and the "FKB Categories", see the links in the navigation panel that is on the right side of each main FKB page.

The Appliances Forum is very useful when you have questions specific to appliances.

To start off the kitchen remodel process...take the Sweeby Test. Then, move on to Beginning a Kitchen Plan.

Other topics such as layouts, planning for storage, and stone materials are discussed in later topics in this thread. Even more information can be found by doing a search on the forum.

Tips:

  • Before posting a question, please search the forum. There's a very good chance someone has already asked the question.

  • When using the "search" function, be sure to use the search box on the bottom of the page, not the top!

  • Note, however, that you will probably have better luck searching if you use Google (or similar search engine) than if you use the Forum search function. When using Google, to limit your results to Garden Web, include the following in your search criteria: ***site:ths.gardenweb.com

  • In the Subject, the site changes the double quote used as the inches indicator (") to a single quote ('). We don't know why. To compensate, use two single quotes and it will appear as a double quote in the Subject. Luckily, the double quote works in the message box.

  • When composing a new thread, you have a couple of options:

    • Have replies emailed to you: check the box offering this option. However, you must have "Allow other users to send you email via forms at our site." box checked in your profile for this to work (see the "Your Profile" link at the very top of the page) [See the post later in this thread with the Subject: Getting Emails Sent To You...3-step Process]

    • Insert a link: When you "preview" your message, you will be provided with two boxes for a link...one is for the link itself and the second is for the name or description of the link.

  • When using the "Clip this post" option (far upper right corner of each post, small print), remember that only the current post is clipped, not the entire thread. Also, you are allowed a maximum of 50 clippings. Once you reach this max, you will no longer be able to clip or email posts.


How are the home page and the Forum organized? (based on the Kitchen Forum's FAQs entries)

  • The Kitchens Forum home page lists 30 thread titles, starting with those that don't yet have a response. After the unanswered threads, threads are listed in order of most recent response. That first page displays the last 2 hours or so of activity. (If there is no response to a thread in an hour or two, the unanswered thread usually starts to drop.)
  • Below the thread list are page numbers 1-67 for the total 67 pages of threads available -- capturing maybe 2 months or so of threads, less when the Forum is busy.
  • Below that (and at the top of the thread list as well) is a space for you to switch to the Conversations or Gallery "sides" - these are set up similarly but are not nearly as active.
  • Next down is a Search box -- very important! This is also the Search box you should use (not the one at the top of the page.)
    • Always refresh the page two or three times b/f assuming a thread has disappeared right after starting it.
    • As to searching...a thread will not be found doing a GW search for up to 24 hours after it has been started. This may seem too technical, but...searches are done against what are known as "indexes". Indexes use key fields/words to find things. iVillage only indexes threads once a day. So, that means that until your thread is "indexed", it won't show up in a search. If you start a thread just before the index is taken, you will be able to retrieve your thread by searching soon after creation. If, however, you start your thread right after the daily index, then you will have to wait almost 24 hours for the next index.

  • Next is a place for you to start a new thread. And finally there are some instructions and links at the bottom.


Kitchen Forum "Sides"

Discussions: This is the "side" you are on. It is for on-topic discussions concerning kitchens...renovations, use of, etc.

Conversations: This is the "side" where you can post off topic threads such as regional get-togethers and non-kitchen subjects.

Gallery: This is the "side" where members often post pictures...especially if you're posting a lot or a finished kitchen. (Note: This is where StarPooh, our FKB person, wants you to post your finished kitchen prior to having it added to the FKB.)


Again, welcome and good luck! The journey is wild, sometimes bumpy, but fun and very rewarding in the end!

NOTES:

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clipped on: 05.07.2012 at 10:44 am    last updated on: 05.07.2012 at 10:44 am

small kitchen finally done! pics

posted by: ship4u on 04.19.2012 at 01:23 pm in Kitchens Forum

He everyone,
All of you have been very helpful to us for the past couple of years. We have followed along in countless discussions, and I apologize for not posting more.

Our kitchen is finally done, and I figured out how to post to photobucket. Hope it works. We are looking forward to your comments.

NOTES:

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clipped on: 04.27.2012 at 12:46 pm    last updated on: 04.27.2012 at 12:46 pm

Stone Information and Advice (& Checklists)

posted by: buehl on 04.14.2008 at 02:56 am in Kitchens Forum

First off, I want to give a big thank-you to StoneGirl, Kevin, Joshua, Mimi, and others (past and current) on this forum who have given us many words of wisdom concerning stone countertops.

I've tried to compile everything I saved over the past 8 months that I've been on this Forum. Most of it was taken from a write-up by StoneGirl (Natural stone primer/granite 101); other threads and sources were used as well.

So...if the experts could review the information I've compiled below and send me comments (here or via email), I will talk to StarPooh about getting this on the FAQ.


Stone Information, Advice, and Checklists:

In an industry that has no set standards, there are many unscrupulous people trying to palm themselves off as fabricators. There are also a number of people with odd agendas trying to spread ill rumors about natural stone and propagate some very confusing and contradictory information. This is my small attempt at shedding a little light on the subject.

Slab Selection:

On the selection of the actual stone slabs - When you go to the slab yard to choose slabs for your kitchen, there are a few things you need to take note of:

  • Surface finish: The finish - be it polished, honed, flamed antiqued, or brushed, should be even. There should be no spots that have obvious machine marks, scratches, or other man made marks. You can judge by the crystal and vein pattern of the stone if the marks you see are man-made or naturally occurring. It is true that not all minerals will finish evenly and if you look at an angle on a polished slab with a larger crystal pattern, you can clearly see this. Tropic Brown would be a good example here. The black spots will not polish near as shiny as the brown ones and this will be very obvious on an unresined slab when looking at an acute angle against the light. The black specks will show as duller marks. The slab will feel smooth and appear shiny if seen from above, though. This effect will not be as pronounced on a resined slab.

    Bottom line when judging the quality of a surface finish: Look for unnatural appearing marks. If there are any on the face of the slab, it is not desirable. They might well be on the extreme edges, but this is normal and a result of the slab manufacturing process.


  • Mesh backing: Some slabs have a mesh backing. This was done at the plant where the slabs were finished. This backing adds support to brittle materials or materials with excessive veining or fissures. A number of exotic stones will have this. This does not necessarily make the material one of inferior quality, though. Quite often, these slabs will require special care in fabrication and transport, so be prepared for the fabricator to charge accordingly. If you are unsure about the slabs, ask your fabricator what his opinion of the material is.

  • Cracks and fissures: Yes - some slabs might have them. One could have quite the discussion on whether that line on the slab could be one or the other, so I'll try to explain it a little.

    • Fissures are naturally occurring features in stone. They will appear as little lines in the surface of the slabs (very visible in a material like Verde Peacock) and could even be of a different color than the majority of the stone (think of those crazed white lines sometimes appearing in Antique Brown). Sometimes they could be fused like in Antique Brown and other times they could be open, as is the case in the Verde Peacock example. They could often also go right through the body of the slab like in Crema Marfil, for instance. If you look at the light reflection across a fissure, you will never see a break - i.e., there will be no change in the plane on either side of a fissure.

    • A crack on the other hand is a problem... If you look at the slab at an oblique angle in the light, you will note the reflection of the shine on the surface of the stone. A crack will appear as a definite line through the reflection and the reflection will have a different appearance on either side of the line - there will be a break in the plane. Reject slabs like this. One could still work around fissures. Cracks are a whole other can of worms.

    • Resined slabs: The resin gets applied prior to the slabs being polished. Most of the resin then gets ground off in the polishing process. You should not be able to see just by looking at the surface of a slab whether it was resined or not. If you look at the rough sides of the slab, though, you will see some drippy shiny marks, almost like varnish drips. This should be the only indication that the slab is resined. There should never be a film or layer on the face of the stone. With extremely porous stones, the resining will alleviate, but not totally eliminate absorption issues and sealer could still be required. Lady's dream is an example. This material is always resined, but still absorbs liquids and requires sealer.

    • Test the material you have selected for absorption issues regardless - it is always best to know what your stone is capable of and to be prepared for any issues that might arise. Some stones indeed do not require sealer - be they resined or not. Baltic Brown would be an example here. It will not absorb one iota of anything, but it is still resined to eliminate a flaking issue.

Tests (especially for Absolute Black) (using a sample of YOUR slab):

  • To verify you have true AB and not dyed: Clean with denatured alcohol and rub marble polishing powder on the face. (Get denatured alcohol at Home Depot in the paint department)

  • Lemon Juice or better yet some Muratic Acid: will quickly show if the stone has alot of calcium content and will end up getting etched. This is usually chinese stone, not indian.

  • Acetone: The Dying usually is done on the same chinese stone. like the others said, acetone on a rag will reveal any dye that has been applied

  • Chips: Using something very hard & metalhit the granite sharply & hard on edges to see if it chips, breaks, or cracks


Measuring:

  • Before the templaters get there...
    • Make sure you have a pretty good idea of your faucet layout--where you want the holes drilled for all the fixtures and do a test mock up to make sure you have accounted for sufficient clearances between each fixture.

    • Be sure you test your faucet for clearances not just between each fixture, but also between the faucet and the wall behind the faucet (if there is one). You need to be sure the handle will function properly.

    • Make sure that the cabinets are totally level (not out by more than 1/8") before the counter installers come in.

    • Check how close they should come to a stove and make sure the stove sits up higher than the counter.

    • Make sure they have the sink/faucet templates to work from.

    • Make sure have your garbage disposal air switch on hand or know the diameter

  • If you are not putting in a backsplash, tell them

  • Double check the template. Make sure that the measurements are reasonable. Measure the opening for the range.

  • Seam Placement: Yet another kettle of fish (or can of worms, depending on how you look at it, I guess!) Seam placement is ultimately at the discretion of the fabricator. I know it is not a really popular point of view, but that is just the way it is. There really is more to deciding where the seam would go than just the size of the slab or where the seam would look best in the kitchen.

    Most stone installations will have seams. They are unavoidable in medium or large sized kitchens. One hallmark of a good fabricator is that they will keep the seams to a minimum. It seems that a good book could be written about seams, their quality, and their placementand still you will have some information that will be omitted! For something as seemingly simple as joining two pieces of stone, seams have evolved into their own universe of complexity far beyond what anybody should have fair cause to expect!


  • Factors determining seam placement:

    • The slab: size, color, veining, structure (fissures, strength of the material an other characteristics of the stone)

    • Transport to the job site: Will the fabricated pieces fit on whatever vehicle and A-frames he has available

    • Access to the job site: Is the house on stilts? (common in coastal areas) How will the installers get the pieces to where they need to go? Will the tops fit in the service elevator if the apartment is on the 10th floor? Do the installers need to turn tight corners to get to the kitchen? There could be 101 factors that will influence seam placement here alone.

    • Placement and size of undermount (or other) cut-outs. Some fabricators like to put seams in undermount sinks, some do not. We, for instance will do it if absolutely necessary, and have done so with great success, but will not do so as general practice. We do like to put seams in the middle of drop-in appliances and cut-outs and this is a great choice for appearances and ease of installation.

    • Location of the cabinets: Do the pieces need to go in between tall cabinets with finished sides? Do the pieces need to slide in under appliance garages or other cabinetry? How far do the upper cabinets hang over? Is there enough clearance between the vent hood and other cabinets? Again the possibilities are endless and would depend on each individual kitchen lay-out and - ultimately -

    • Install-ability of the fabricated pieces: Will that odd angle hold up to being moved and turned around to get on the peninsula if there is no seam in it? Will the extra large sink cut-out stay intact if we hold the piece flat and at a 45 degree angle to slide it in between those two tall towers? Again, 1,001 combinations of cabinetry and material choices will come into play on this question.

    You can ask your fabricator to put a seam at a certain location and most likely he will oblige, but if he disagrees with you, it is not (always) out of spite or laziness. Check on your fabricator's seams by going to actual kitchens he has installed. Do not trust what you see in a showroom as sole testament to your fabricator's ability to do seams.

    With modern glues and seaming methods, a seam could successfully be put anywhere in an installation without compromising the strength or integrity of the stone. If a seam is done well, there is - in theory - no "wrong" location for it. A reputable fabricator will also try to keep the number of seams in any installation to a minimum. It is not acceptable, for instance to have a seam in each corner, or at each point where the counter changes direction, like on an angled peninsula.

    Long or unusually large pieces are often done if they can fit in the constraints of a slab. Slabs as a rule of thumb will average at about 110"x65". There are bigger slabs and quite often smaller ones too. Check with the fabricator or the slab yard. They will be more than happy to tell you the different sizes of slabs they have available. Note, though, that the larger the slabs, the smaller the selection of possible colors. Slab sizes would depend in part on the capabilities of the quarry, integrity of the material or the capabilities of the machinery at the finishing plant. We have had slabs as wide as 75" and as long as 130" before, but those are monsters and not always readily available.

  • Generally, it is not a good idea to seam over a DW because there's no support for the granite, and anything heavy placed at or near the seam would stress the stone, possibly breaking it.

  • Rodding is another issue where a tremendous amount of mis-information and scary stories exist: The main purpose for rodding stone would be to add integrity to the material around cut-outs. This is primarily for transport and installation and serves no real purpose once the stone is secured and fully supported on the cabinets. It would also depend on the material. A fabricator would be more likely to rod Ubatuba than he would Black Galaxy, for instance. The flaky and delicate materials prone to fissures would be prime candidates for rodding. Rodding is basically when a fabricator cuts slots in the back of the stone and embeds steel or fiberglass rods with epoxy in the slots in the stone. You will not see this from the top or front of the installation. This is an "insurance policy" created by the fabricator to make sure that the stone tops make it to your cabinets all in one piece

  • Edges: The more rounded an edge is, the more stable it would be. Sharp, flat edges are prone to chipping under the right (or rather wrong) circumstances. Demi or full bullnose edges would almost entirely eliminate this issue. A properly milled and polished edge will be stable and durable regardless of the profile, though. My guess at why ogee and stacked edges are not more prevalent would be purely because of cost considerations. Edge pricing is determined by the amount of work needed to create it. The more intricate edge profiles also require an exponentially larger skill set and more time to perfect. The ogee edge is a very elegant edge and can be used to great effect, but could easily look overdone if it is used everywhere. We often advise our clients to combine edges for greater impact - i.e., eased edge on all work surfaces, and ogee on the island to emphasize the cabinetry or unusual shape.
    Edge profiles are largely dependent on what you like and can afford. There is no real pro or con for regular or laminated edges. They all have their place in the design world. Check with your fabricator what their capabilities and pricing are. Look at actual kitchens and ask for references.


Installation:

  • Seams:
    One hallmark of a good fabricator is that they will keep the seams to a minimum [StoneGirl]

    • A generic good quality seam should have the following characteristics:
      • It should be flat. According to the Marble Institute of America (MIA) a minimal amount of lippage is acceptable (1/32"), but conscientious fabricators all strive for a perfectly flat and smooth joint.

      • It should be narrow - as in smaller than 1/16". (I think the MIA stipulates no larger than 1/8", but that is pushing it - and only if the fabricator bevels the edges of the seam, almost similar to the edge of a stone tile. This is, thank goodness, not a standard practice any more!)

      • The color on either side of the seam should match as closely as possible. On regularly patterned stones like Ubatuba for example - there should be no variation. On stones with variation in colors or veins, the match should be made as close as was humanly possible.

      • Vein direction should flow. The MIA suggests a single direction of vein flow, but it is acceptable IF DISCUSSED WITH THE CLIENT to change vein direction on a seam if no other option is available. This would happen in book matched slabs - you will have a "butterfly" seam in this case. In other cases, the fabricator could put a miter seam in a corner and change vein direction 90 degrees. This is usually done with extremely linear veining like Bamboo Green, for example, but this is something that should be discussed with the fabricator and agreed upon by the client.

      • The seam on the finished edge of the stone should NOT dip in and create a divot in the edge. When you run your fingers over the edge, you should not be able to feel the location of the seam at all.

      • The thickness of the slabs on either side of the seam should be equal (or feathered out so that there is no discernible difference)

      • The glue in the seam should be of a color that matches the stone as closely as possible. Glue joints that are too light or too dark will show up something terrible. The idea behind tinting the glue is to try to make the seam "disappear" or something relatively close to it

  • Checklist:
    • Check the seams for evenness and smoothness.

      • Make sure that the seams are neat and clean.

      • Make sure that the seams are not obvious.

      • Make sure the seams are butted tight

      • Make sure that there are no scratches, pits, or cracks

    • If sealing is necessary (not all granites need to be sealed):

      • Make sure that the granite has been sealed

      • If more than one application of sealer was applied, ask how long they waited between applications

      • Ask which sealer has been used on the granite.

    • Make sure the sink reveal is consistent all the away around

    • Check the gap of the granite at the wall junctions.

    • Check for inconsistent overhangs from the counter edges

    • Check for chips. These can be filled.

    • Make sure the top drawers open & close

    • Make sure that you can open & close your dishwasher

    • Make sure the stove sits up higher than the counter

    • Make sure that you have the appropriate clearances for your appliances

    • Check the edge all around, a good edge should have the following characteristics:
      • Shine: The edge polish should match the top polish in depth and clarity. The edge should not be milky, dull, or waxy.

      • The edge should not have "waves". Eyeball along the edge. A good edge should have a mirror like reflection and be fairly flat. Waves that you can see or feel are not a good thing.

      • The aris (very top of the edge) should be crisp and straight, even on a bullnose edge. Once again you can see this by eyeballing along the very top end of the edge profile. A wavy, dippy aris is poor craftsmanship.

      • A good edge will have a consistent profile. It will not be larger in some spots or smaller in others.

      • A good edge should also have NO tooling lines. These will be fine lighter/white lines running along the edge. This is a mark of a poor edge polish, of a CNC machine that is not set correctly, and a lack of hand finishing. This is common when a company has only mechanical fabrication (i.e., CNC machines or line polishers) and no skilled hand fabricators to finish the work properly.

    • Run your hands around the entire laminated edge of yor counters to make sure they are smooth

    • Check surrounding walls & cabinets for damage

Miscellaneous Information:

  • More than all the above and below, though, is to be present for both the templating as well as having the templates placed on your slabs at the fabricator's
    If you canot be there, then have a lengthy conversation about seam placement, ways to match the movement, and ways to color-match the counters that will be joined at the seam

  • Find a fabricator who is a member of the SFA

  • When they polish your stone for you don't let them wax it. It will look terrible in 2 months when the wax wears off.

  • Don't use the Magic Eraser on granite--especially AB

  • Any slab with more fill (resin) than stone is certainly a no-no!!

  • When you do check for scratches, have overhead lighting shining down so scratches are easier to see

  • Don't let them do cutouts in place (granite dust becomes a major issue)

  • Granite dust can be a problem...some have heard of SS appliances & hoods damaged by the dust, others have heard of drawer glides being ruined by the dust

  • If you have wood floors--especially if you're in the process of staining or finishing them--make sure that they don't spill or drip granite sealer on the wood floors. Apparently the sealer interferes with the stain or finish process.

  • Suggested Prep for Installation:
    • Remove any drawers and pullouts beneath any sections that will be cut or drilled onsite, e.g., sink cutouts and/or faucet, soap dispenser, air gap, instant hot etc. holes, cooktop cutouts.

    • Then just cover the glides themselves with a few layers of blue painter's tape (or some combo of plastic wrap and tape)

    • If you make sure to cover the top of the glides and attach some of the tape to the cab wall as well (to form sort of a seal)and cover the rest of the glides completely with tape, you should be fine.

    • Usually the fabricators will have someone holding a vacuum hose right at the spot where they are drilling or cutting, so very little granite dust should be landing on the glides. What little dust escapes the vacuum will be blocked by the layer(s) of tape.

    • When done w/installation, remove the tape and use a DustBuster (or similar) on all the cabinets and glides

  • Countertop Support:

    • If your granite is 2 cm thick, then there can be no more then 6" of of unsupported span with a 5/8" subtop

    • If your granite is 3 cm thick, then there can be no more then 10" of unsupported span - no subtop required

    • If you need support, the to determine your corbel dimensions:

    • Thickness of Stone - Dimension of Unsupported Span = Corbel Dimensino

    • i.e., an 18" total overhang in 2 cm would require a 12" corbe; the same overhang in 3 cm would require an 8" corbel

NOTES:

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clipped on: 05.29.2010 at 03:59 pm    last updated on: 05.29.2010 at 03:59 pm

RE: Soapstone counters a talc-cancer hazard? (Follow-Up #24)

posted by: florida_joshua on 05.14.2010 at 08:55 pm in Kitchens Forum

An old lab table as mentioned above. Someone in the lab years ago decided to paint the table top black. . .then years pass with all the chemicals eating away the finish. . . then I bought the top and refinished the one half. . . . back to the way it should be. . . lol
Photobucket

I did oil the right half. . .it would look grey like the parts on the left that are showing the natural grey color.

NOTES:

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clipped on: 05.15.2010 at 02:36 pm    last updated on: 05.15.2010 at 02:39 pm

Soapstone Counters: Brazilian Black vs Beleza

posted by: cicely_2010 on 04.27.2010 at 07:31 am in Kitchens Forum

Does anyone have either of these two soapstones installed that you could comment on or post pictures? I have narrowed it down to Beleza from Dorado or Brazilian Black from Teixeira. I live 11 hours away from the slabs and am trying to make my decision from small samples and not very good pictures. Also any thoughts about these two stones?

NOTES:

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clipped on: 05.07.2010 at 05:50 pm    last updated on: 05.07.2010 at 05:50 pm