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RE: Granite countertops dangerous? (revans) (Follow-Up #48)

posted by: w_j_llope on 05.11.2008 at 01:21 pm in Kitchens Forum

"I hope that you'll stick around, and let us know what else you find in your work."

i have errands and yard-work to deal with at the moment, but i will check back here occasionally. the results from all future studies that i do will be made available at the site http://wjllope.rice.edu/saxumsubluceo/ ....
check back there in a week or so if you're interested...

take care

NOTES:

<none>
clipped on: 05.11.2008 at 01:26 pm    last updated on: 05.11.2008 at 01:26 pm

RE: Corian Quote seems way high! (Follow-Up #23)

posted by: realworldideaman on 10.02.2007 at 11:55 pm in Kitchens Forum

isbutler2000

First, let me say I am a member of FabNet and have had quite a few dealings with Al at Carpenter Shop. Al is nothing if not determined to do everything in his power to move solid surface up in customer opinions. I believe he would rather crawl naked over broken glass than mis lead a solid surface customer or see one being over charged. That would not help move solid surface forward and he just would not do it.

Now that is out of the way.... I am a solid surface fabricator and a contractor for ServiceMagic (sorry Al, but you are wrong about them. I too think the original bid you got from Sears is WAY out of line. Even for Corian. I do not work with Corian because I do not like their prices, but even for them that price is crazy. For that price I can make you some tops with my top of the line material and fly them to you for install. I'll even throw in a bottle of fine wine and some chocolate dipped strawberries for you to enjoy while we do the install.

Seriously though, spend a bit of time getting quotes and I am sure you will find you can get a much better price. Probably even better if you look at other brands.

Most important.... make sure to check out your fabricator well. Ask around to see if you know anyone local who has had tops made (you probably have already done that). Call the local BBB and check the fabricators. Maybe stop in unannounced one day to see work in progress in the shop. Just remember, price does not mean they are the worst or best. Use wise judgment and do your homework, you should be happy in the end.

Here is a link that might be useful: CabsAndTops.com

NOTES:

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clipped on: 10.03.2007 at 08:22 am    last updated on: 10.03.2007 at 08:23 am

RE: Stonegirl / carpentershop or others ??? on Matrix granite (Follow-Up #21)

posted by: carpentershop on 08.18.2007 at 10:03 pm in Kitchens Forum

vrjames, I thought that lovesto cook had straightened you out on matrix being a granite? I re read the thread and you didn't reply to her questions, so assumed she was correct.

And who would you believe if you were buying something, a saleman or an unbiased scientific study? Why are you so adamant that you know better than they do?

Mindstorm, I am on record over and over again stating that blanket statements on granite are inaccurate, so try to find a valid point if you must speak to this issue. Assume, knowing my experience and education, that I am speaking about the general tendency of threads on granite to be lacking in info about the bad points. Later on, try this, search this site for Matrix and tell us if you ever saw it discussed so frankly, or any other problem granite.

And you can read posts above from the granite guys attacking. They have attacked every post I have participated in on granite, used name calling and complaining when I hit back to get threads deleted because they don't like what I post. They have done their best to shout down any civil discussion of the weak points of granite.

The info I was sitting on was that both stones the OP wanted were on the SFA black list. I wanted to see if the salesmen would point out the obvious facts about matrix and they did except for mentioning the black list. After all, that would hurt granite sales. We have it printed out and use it daily when customers ask about specific granite, first thing we do is check the black list just in case.

The SFA is pretty good about allowing discussion about these issues, where the salesmen don't like it is when you homeowners get to listen in..........

And when you talk about the issues flit through here for years and are traced to some competitor prodcut, that isn't the case with me is it? I have linked to scientific studies on those issues, so some one is worried enough to warrant studies being paid for and it isn't other material companies sponsoring these studies. They were unknown to the countertop industry till I searched them out and got th info moving around. What happened before when these topics "flitted" through was that there was mass ignorance about the issues or salesmen assured you that all was good. I assume this is the first time the issue has been discussed in depth? Yet it hasn't, I could post for days on either issue and not run out of info.

Behaving as if all granites and solid surfaces were the same? No, I have preached this ad nausem, and have put up as many post critical of solid surface issues as granite issues. Thing is there are no solid surface only salesmen squealing in indignity over the info getting out, I respond to the thread and that is all that happens. On granite, there seems to be a lot of people with a dog in the fight, salesmen or homeowners defending a decision to buy granite.

NOTES:

<none>
clipped on: 09.11.2007 at 10:57 am    last updated on: 09.11.2007 at 10:57 am

Is that a real granite? (and does it really matter?!)

posted by: stonegirl on 09.05.2007 at 02:16 pm in Kitchens Forum

As with so much in the natural stone industry, there is a fairly large amount of confusion regarding the actual geologic classification of most commercially available slab materials. The amount of misinformation is astounding and often quite discouraging for the average Sally and Joe Consumer trying to decide on what material would make just the best counter top for their new kitchen. With this article I will try to clarify some of the intricacies of stone classification.

I'll start with a given: Not all commercial granites are true geologic granites. I can already hear you sigh and roll your eyes. I sympathize - science was not my forte either, but take heart, I will try my best to make this entertaining!

In the commercial realm, a "granite" gets classified as a hard natural stone which can be polished and that requires more aggressive tools and abrasive than what would be used on marble. This is a pretty broad and not very scientific kind of description, which leaves some pretty big loopholes and some really wide wiggle room.

A true geologic granite gets classified as an igneous rock consisting mainly of quartz, feldspars and mica - much more concise and restrictive.

To be quite honest, real geologic granites are not very exciting pieces of rock at all (from a design perspective, I have to add). They will have quite an homogeneous grain pattern and can range in color from grays to browns, yellows or pinks. A good example of a real geologic granite would be Georgia Gray (from Elberton, GA and it has a water absorption weight of 0.2%-0.3%). True granites are not reactive to acids, but could be quite absorbent as our example illustrates. This stone would be OK for use as a counter top, but would require sealer. It has been used as cladding for buildings and for monuments and gravestones for many, many years, though.

The rest of the commercial granites can be divided into a couple of broad groups: Magmatic rocks and Metamorphic rocks.

Magmatic rocks are formed when magma cooled and crystallized. True granites (like Tropic Brown), syenites (like Ubatuba), gabbros (like Black Absolute), diorites (like Brazilian Black) and charnokites (like Atlantic Green) will fall under this umbrella.

Metamorphic rocks were formed when one kind of stone i.e. sandstone, got transformed into another kind of material i.e. gneiss. An example of such a stone would be Giallo Veneziano (a gneiss from Brazil with a water absorption weight of 0.25%-0.35%). Metaconglomerates (like Verde Marinace), Quartzites (like Almond Mauve), migmatites (like Paradiso Classico), gneisses (like Santa Cecilia) and granulites (like Verde Jewel/Tropical Green) also fall under this group.

What makes the commercial "granites" so appealing, is the fact that they are just so diverse. You have hundreds of different colors and patterns that will go beyond even your wildest imagination.

And this brings us to the second part of my question: Does it really matter if it is not a true geologic granite?

In a word: No. (and yes - you are right - I am not done yet!)

Earlier in my dissertation you might have noticed me mentioning something called the "water absorption weight" (WAW - for further reference). This is an indicator of just how absorbent a specific stone might be. The lower the number, the less absorbent the stone would be.

Following the discussions of natural stone and how they always gravitate to the question of whether a sealer would be required, this number would be a pretty good indicator of how good a stone would stand up to use in a kitchen. Without further ado, I will list a few popular stones, along with their geologic classifications and WAW's:

Black Absolute (gabbro) WAW: 0.05%-0.15%
Baltic Brown (granite) WAW: 0.15%-0.2%
Santa Cecilia (gneiss) WAW: 0.25%-0.35%
Verde Butterfly (charnokite) WAW: 0.1%-0.2%
Shivakashki (gneiss) WAW: 0.25%-0.35%
Silver Sea Green (granite) WAW: 0.15%
Marinace Green (metaconglomerate) WAW: 0.05%-0.15%
Kashmire White (granulite) WAW: 0.3%-0.5%

As you can see from the above sample, there are a number of stones that far out-perform true geologic granites in the absorption department. There are also a number of stones that absorb a tremendous amount of water (take the Kashmire White for instance). On the other side of the scale, there are stones that are too dense to benefit from the application of a sealer any way - Verde Marinace would be a great example.

Although modern sealer technology has advanced a long way in making stones less absorbent, there are a few materials (notably mostly Chinese and Indian in origin) that, even with the best sealer on the market, should not be considered for use in any high traffic environment. Again the Kashmire White would be a shining example.

Testing for absorption issues on granite samples would be as easy as dripping some water on your sample and letting it sit for a while. If it darkens the stone a little, a sealer might help. If the stone immediately becomes darker and maintains the dark spot for some while, stay away! Maintaining this would be a constant battle.

Etching is another must-do test for stones to be used in a kitchen. A lot of stones are chemically inert. Baltic Brown, Verde Butterfly, the REAL Black Absolute, Blue Eyes, the list can go on and on. Some stones on the other hand do react to acids. Blue Bahia (a sodalite-syenite) would be one example. Etches will show up as dull spots on an otherwise shiny surface. Sealers will not prevent etches, purely because etches are chemical reactions and have nothing to do with the absorption rate of the stone in question.

There are two ways to work around this issue. One is to avoid the stone that etched in testing and the other is to hone and enhance the stone. This would still give you a depth of color, but the shine would be absent and thus the etch marks - though they would still happen - would not be as prominent as they would have been on a polished surface.

To test for etching, place a wedge of lemon or lime, cut side down, on the sample overnight. Wipe the sample in the morning and hold it at an angle to the light. If there is a rough looking spot where the shine is absent, you have an etch. Etches would normally occur where calcium or calcite is present in the make-up of the stone.

Another subject of relevance in this discussion would be resining. Resining is a process where resins get impregnated into the stone slabs before they are finished. The slabs then get polished and most of the resins get polished off, leaving it only in the pits and fissures in the slabs. This serves a few purposes:
1. It can consolidate a fissured or flaky slab (Golden Beach would be an example of this - without resin, this slab would probably not have been commercially available)
2. It can reduce the WAW of a material (Santa Cecilia is a great example here. Even though it is quite an absorbent material, once it is resined, it sometimes does not require the application of a sealer even)
3. It is conducive to a superior surface finish. (Flaky stones like Verde Butterfly get resined to eliminate surface crystals from flaking off. This then provides a smooth finish to the polished slabs)
4. Another side effect of the resining process is enhanced colors. On some stones like Lady's Dream the colors could deepen with the application of the resin.

So what would be the bottom line of all this? It does not matter whether the stone you have is a real granite or not. The geologic classification has virtually no impact on the performance of the material in a kitchen. I can also say with a lot of certainty that most stone suppliers and distributors will not be able to tell a gneiss from a schist if they ever had to. It is indeed sad, but oh, so true.

So where does this leave the consumer? Well, kinda' up a creek, but hopefully I supplied a paddle here

TEST TEST and test your stone to see if it would hold up to the rigors in your kitchen. But probably the most important advice I could give you would be to choose your fabricator carefully. Make sure they have a knowledge of stone that you are comfortable with and could trust. Ask for references and look at kitchens they have done. New counter tops is a considerable investment. Do not make the mistake of thinking that stone is stone and that the guy doing it at $29 a foot will produce the same quality as someone more expensive. Conversely, do not expect the most expensive guy to be able to produce the best quality work either. A bad fabricator could make a mess out of even the best piece of stone on the planet.

Regards,
Adriana

NOTES:

<none>
clipped on: 09.06.2007 at 10:17 pm    last updated on: 09.06.2007 at 10:17 pm

RE: another weird granite question (Follow-Up #8)

posted by: carpentershop on 08.22.2007 at 10:39 pm in Kitchens Forum

I know that some of the guys over at stoneadvice.com posted that the "black list" was for fabrication issues only, and I am quite familular with the thread. There were some complaining that some stones shouldn't be on the list.

That said, why did they pull the thread off the public pages and put it in the "Dark Room"? Were the thread just about PITA stones to fabricate, homeowners would benefit from knowing which ones have a built in charge for difficulty to fabricate. Some of the stones were on their for scratching or staining, some were labeled as "Junk" by individual fabricators.

Here is the list, as of last May. Look down aways for the actual list. Note the fabricator taking down his sample of White Persia, Genisis crumbling like blue cheese in this woman's hands (Never again, she says), Breccia Oniceata fabricator says to stock up on epoxy before cutting it, and Black Matrix that is near impossible to polish on the edges and is easy to scratch.

Maron Cohiba
Labrador Antique
Delicatus
Sea Foam Green
Golden Ice
Sucuri
Honey Gold
Gold and Silver
Antique Brown
Negro Rosada
ghibli
kash white
kash gold
brown antique (kryptonite in there...snaps finger bits)
rain forest
borduex
corral reef
some rainforst material
all the indian juperanas
delicatus
gahriba beach
coral reaf
Mascarello
purple dunas
juperana golden
Aqua Grantique
Mantegna
Bianco Antico
Tropical Treasure
Amadeus
Geriba Beach
Oro Romano
White Spring
Matrix
Black Forest
Amber Fantasy
gold carrocca
Azul Macuba
Angelica Black
Metallic-it has gneiss, which is a striated metamorphic stone AKIN to granite
jurassic green
Copper silk
GENESIS

I used to tell people how great the stoneadvice.com site was, but when they yanked this, they did consumers a disservice.

Here is a copy of the last page, where you will find the comments about some of the stones.










Stone black List

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blaight
Trusted Friend

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 48
Location: salmon arm, bc. canada

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject: For what it's worth

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI....Just finished the white persia kitchen...found out that if you use a sander and 80 thru 320 grit sand paper we had zero blow outs or crumbling of this stone..went to 800 wet and up after that and it was a beauty of a finish.....
I'm still taking down my sample of this stone...........
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Brian Laight
Hard Rock Granite
Salmon Arm, BC.
250-832-4341
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Checketts
Best Friend

Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 530
Location: Providence Ut.

Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 4:03 am Post subject:

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All Bianco Romano slabs must not be created equil.
We did a 3cm job with a 2-3/4'' edge on a very large island with no problems.
The island was so long we had to use the ends off of a bookmatched slab to make it long enough.
I have another job coming up. Hope it goes just as well.
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Rock on!
Chris Checketts, SFA
http://www.stoneadvice.com/forum/Stone-Tips4928.html
Granitetopsofutah.com
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actoffice
Best Friend

Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 209
Location: Cleveland, GA

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject:

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STAY AWAY FROM GENESIS!!!!

I am screaming that for a reason- expensive stone that crumbles like blue cheese. In fact, when we were trying to repair a piece, I was taking pieces of it and crushing it in my hands (and I am not that strong of a girl).

NEVER AGAIN!!

BTW, I compiled a list of the stones we have been talking about- I will post it in a few minutes, that way we have something to work with.

Jackie
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Mark Lammers,SFA or Jackie Peck, SFA
http://www.appalachianwaterjetandstone.com
Cleveland, GA
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actoffice
Best Friend

Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 209
Location: Cleveland, GA

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stone Fabrication Black List (as of 5/21/07)

Maron Cohiba
Labrador Antique
Delicatus
Sea Foam Green
Golden Ice
Sucuri
Honey Gold
Gold and Silver
Antique Brown
Negro Rosada
ghibli
kash white
kash gold
brown antique (kryptonite in there...snaps finger bits)
rain forest
borduex
corral reef
some rainforst material
all the indian juperanas
delicatus
gahriba beach
coral reaf
Mascarello
purple dunas
juperana golden
Aqua Grantique
Mantegna
Bianco Antico
Tropical Treasure
Amadeus
Geriba Beach
Oro Romano
White Spring
Matrix
Black Forest
Amber Fantasy
gold carrocca
Azul Macuba
Angelica Black
Metallic-it has gneiss, which is a striated metamorphic stone AKIN to granite
jurassic green
Copper silk
GENESIS
_________________
Mark Lammers,SFA or Jackie Peck, SFA
http://www.appalachianwaterjetandstone.com
Cleveland, GA
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Mark Lauzon
Platnum Fez Cap Wearing Super Homeboy

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 4301
Location: Oregon

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject:

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Why is antique lab on the list? That is really a nice stone.
We also have processed TONS of succuri with no issues.
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Regards,
Mark Lauzon, SFA, MIA
www.stoneworks.cc
www.granitemonster.com
Get Allied...Join The SFA!
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actoffice
Best Friend

Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 209
Location: Cleveland, GA

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject:

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I just placed on the list what was posted in the past from other people. We have done Succuri as well that turned out nice.

I thought about placing small snipets of the opinions of the stone with it- but I had a customer come in when I was pulling this together. I will try to edit it tonight after I spend time with my ankle biters (kids- sorry)

Have a great Monday!
Jackie
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Mark Lammers,SFA or Jackie Peck, SFA
http://www.appalachianwaterjetandstone.com
Cleveland, GA
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Timm


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Gig Harbor, Wa.

Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 2:24 am Post subject: Gerbia Beach

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We just got a job with gerbia beach, and I noticed it on the black list. Does anyone have any advice on what to be carefull with when fabricating this stone? Should I be weary about doing an undermount on it? Thanks
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fellow fabricator
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Chris
Uber Super Dooper Friend

Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 1648
Location: Willows, Ca

Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject:

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That's it, I'm not cutting stone anymore, too many black listed materials.
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Chris Freeman, SFA
Freeman Granite & Marble Inc.
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Clyde Kingry
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Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 173
Location: Dothan, Alabama

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:17 am Post subject:

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Breccia Oniceata......

Must have plenty of epoxy around before starting fabrication, especially running 2cm Ogee in the CNC.

BAM!!! Get the glue.

Every time we work with this stuff, I say "never again".
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"Our Reputation Is Set In Stone"
__________________________

Clyde M. Kingry, SFA, MIA, MBNA
Vice President
Southside Granite Co.
Dothan, AL 36301
est. 1941

(334) 794-4161
(334) 797-5083
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Stone Dude
Best Friend

Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Southern California

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:55 am Post subject:

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POOP ON BLACK MATRIX
_________________
Cameron DeMille
Natural Stone Restoration
@
DeMille Marble & Granite
MIA member

check out DeMilleMarble.com
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Clyde Kingry
Best Friend

Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 173
Location: Dothan, Alabama

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:44 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stone Dude wrote:
POOP ON BLACK MATRIX

We had some stuff called Matrix a few weeks ago. The stuff was strange looking, but nice looking. Had a stratified appearance when broken. Nearly impossible to get a good polish on the edge. Very easily scratched. It was a grey metallic color. I don't care if we see anymore of it.

Same stuff?
_________________
"Our Reputation Is Set In Stone"
__________________________

Clyde M. Kingry, SFA, MIA, MBNA
Vice President
Southside Granite Co.
Dothan, AL 36301
est. 1941

(334) 794-4161
(334) 797-5083
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Here is another thread talking about the black list, look about half way down, june 10th or so and one shop mentions that using black listed materials voids their warranty, the word crap was mentioned.

http://www.stoneadvice.com/forum/feeling-silly-dark-granites-most-durable-t2962.html?highlight=granite%20black%20list
True sometimes they mention that the black list is more toward fabrication, but do a search and you will find threads where consumers were clearly using the list to pick out their stone. Sometimes the experts said nothing, other times they claimed the list was for fabrication.

How about it Stoneadvice.com, how about putting it back up so consumers can make up their own minds?

NOTES:

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clipped on: 09.04.2007 at 04:19 pm    last updated on: 09.04.2007 at 04:19 pm

RE: another weird granite question (Follow-Up #31)

posted by: carpentershop on 09.03.2007 at 07:30 pm in Kitchens Forum

gneegirl,
you are pretending that this is one sided. Go back to the begining, my only comment was that the black list wasn't up any longer and it needed to be checked to see if this mateial was on it. I did mention that findstone has some content on it, but their site has these long threads and only a motivated person will wade through it.

Then the lying starts about the black list and it's purpose. What would you prefer, that it goes unanswered and people don't know about this excellent resource because some are afraid it will impact sales?

Once challenged further, I posted the last page and any normal person reading that will get the idea that some of these stones, like Matrix, are junk and shouldn't be sold period.

Then Mimsic still couldn't get a straight answer on the grainy residue on her granite top. others found the list important as well, so all don't share your opinion. And still people claimed that the black list wasn't a black list?

As to taking things poorly, how can you be so sure that anyone means things the way you take them? Time is short, typing is work, so you get the shortest version that I can provide. If you are offended, get some help because I don't remember directing anything toward you. Grow a thick skin, remember that this isn't just about you, and try being empathetic once in a while, you might be offended less.

What others find so upsetting about the info I post is that it is real, mostly from scientific studies or worse, from stone sites. They can not attack the facts, so they attack me. Quaite a little clicque they have going, and lately a bunch from stoneadvice.com jumped in because I posted a link to the black list.

So, in closing, I replied to the OP with two items, about findstone for more info and about the black list. Others attacked the info as being false, and I set them straight. If they will back up their attacks with proof, fine, they might change my mind, yet they refuse to do that. Let the pack lay down their daggers, and I will do the same.

As to being bitter, I am so blessed in life and know it all too well. We won a place in the Wood 100 this year, number 20 on the list, which is a prize. Number 36 last year, so we are on the way to the top. Healthy family, loving wife, great employees, good health myself, nothing to be bitter over.

Try to stop phsycoanylizing people with out any info, take a look at the dozen or so that keep up the other end of the debate and their tatics before you start blaming me.

There are people here that could publish the black list in it's entirety if they wished, to settle the debate once and for all, yet they refuse to. They know that I have a copy, so they can't sanitize it before publication, so they are trapped.

How about it stonegirl and Mark? Post the thing and prove me wrong.

NOTES:

<none>
clipped on: 09.04.2007 at 04:17 pm    last updated on: 09.04.2007 at 04:17 pm

RE: Granite radiation danger a myth? (Follow-Up #52)

posted by: carpentershop on 08.06.2007 at 11:36 pm in Kitchens Forum

okay, Snookums, lovingdw and busymom 2006,
here is something I found. There has been a study done in Cyprus on 28 commerical "granites". It showed the annual dose from living in a home with granite used at differnt rates, from 25% to 100 %, or with varying use of granite. Keep in mind, living in a brick home, with tile floors and sheetrock walls all add to this level, which might bring you up to the 100% level.

Here is what happens when you work in an uranium mine:

1.56 mSv average exposure for an open pit uranium mine worker according to http://www.wise-uranium.org/ruxfw.html

Here is the annual exposure rate of having granite in your home:

as much as 2.97 mSv according to this Cyprus study:

http://arxiv.org/vc/physics/papers/0212/0212104v1.pdf
look at the end of the Abstract.

One suprise was Cafe Brown was the worst, followed by Rosa Balmoral and Rosa Ghiandone.

What does Rosa mean? Rose, or red. Here is a link to some pictures of Rosa granites

http://www.myluton.co.uk/stonea/granite.html

So hopefully this will end this debate. Red granite has more radioactivity than most, with the exception being Cafe Brown, and it is possible to be exposed to twice the radiation that an open pit uranium mine worker is exposed to. Note also that many of the granites were from Brazil, including cafe brown, the most radioactive granite of those studied.

I wonder what they missed, since they studied only 28 types.

NOTES:

<none>
clipped on: 09.03.2007 at 11:45 pm    last updated on: 09.03.2007 at 11:45 pm

RE: To Carpentershop (Follow-Up #47)

posted by: carpentershop on 08.26.2007 at 06:04 pm in Kitchens Forum

Revans1, I have said this before and I will say it again, you seem to point out links to stuff that just proves my point! The link to the fabricatornetwork.com shows that this is an industry wide concern, sanitation as well as stone salesmen lying about stone issues. Note that in that thread we were concerned enough to start scientific studies on our own, as well as start the process to have the studies done by certified labs, pHd's no less doing the work....

I have never seen someone write fictional paragraphs like you did to attempt to put words in someones mouth. How decietful... Why not respond with scientific studies backing up your points? Surely if you are as positive about your position, and you seem to spend plenty of time on the issue, you could come up with some reputable info to back up what you say? Why do you persist in personal attacks?

Same thing to mindstorm, plenty of science studies have been posted or linked to, and you have yet to speak to them.

And not telling the truth about the brazillian study's conclusion will work only if readers don't read the study themselves. It stated clearly that granite was more prone to colonization. period...... The graphs showed that granite "lost" the test on three of four bacterial strains and the one it "won", was by a thread and was the same exact strain that was labeled EMB.

And here is exactly what the researcher wrote when questioned about these issues:

"Im back again.

I hope that the following table will give you the requested information. The values are average numbers of adhered cells/mm2 and the corresponding standard deviation.

Strain
Cells/mm2
Granite
Polyethylene
Polypropylene
Salmonella MUSC
76101412
7970400
14100627
Salmonella EMB
13200297
3860336
2190529
Salmonella AL
4480722
3460249
4730881
Salmonella PC
7300434
3400371
4960116

Sorry for my late reply, but I have been travelling a lot.

Best regards

Rosario Oliveira"

The cut and paste removed the box that kept the numbers striaght, but as you can see, questions were asked and answered by the author. By crunching the numbers above, you will find that granite retained bacteria from 159% to 590% more than the two plastics in the test. Simple math and simple facts..

Here is another reply"
"Your reasoning about the origin of Salmonellas used in our study is totally correct. They live in intestinal tract of chicken. I think that there is no particular type of Salmonella to be found in the breast muscle, it will depend on the species living in the intestine that during the process of evisceration are released to the environment.

Im not aware of any legal problems of using the link you suggest and as the repositorium is freely accessible, I dont see any impediment.

Best Regards

Rosrio Oliveira"

As you can see, there is no diffence between the emb and the musc varieties. In truth, granite did poorly. We were encouraged to use her study in the manner that we are using it here. Doing a personal attack on this woman does little to further this subject.

And here is the latest response I have from the author"

"Hello,

Regarding your question, we could not find any antibacterial property in granite. In fact, all the strains assayed were able to adhere to granite, only the strain MUSC displayed a lower extent of adhesion. Moreover the Physico-Chemical properties of cell surface are much the same for all the strains. The electron donor/acceptor parameters express the ability to establish acid-base interactions but although granite has a high electron donor capacity it will interact in similar way with all the strains because they have very similar electron acceptor parameters. This is why we think that some other factors, like specific cell surface proteins or adhesins play an important role in the Salmonella adhesion process.

I hope to have answered your question.

Best regards

Rosrio Oliveira"

As you can see, bacteria grew on all of the granite samples. THis is a serious issue and deserves to be treated with respect. Note that the study was published, and subjected to peer review. Laughable that you find it lacking in some way..... Perhaps if you can't understand that what the author sent me via email just confirms both the study and our opinions on granite, then perhaps YOU do need to be blacklisted from the publication you publish in.

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clipped on: 09.03.2007 at 11:42 pm    last updated on: 09.03.2007 at 11:42 pm

RE: To Carpentershop (Follow-Up #37)

posted by: carpentershop on 08.18.2007 at 09:36 pm in Kitchens Forum

Paulines, my bad if I read some snide where there was none. No emotion on the internet, causes lots of debates that are silly.

The down sides of rodding, that gives me the jitters at times. Stainless steel allthread isn't as strong or stiff as the 1/2" x 1/8" bar, and locally I haven't been able to find any other source of stainless rods of suitable size. Fiberglass rods either, might have to search online and find a source. For now, we just educate customers and tell them that while we insist on it, others will install witout and let it be their choice on who to go with.

No on the metal working on fabnet, just contertop guys and girls of all kinds. Metal working, I love messing with it. Have been wanting a small lathe for years. Used to build our own machinery when I had a furniture factory, back in the eighties when there wasn't much available. It was pretty common to do so back then. I have stacks of books on amature metal working, how to build machines that work metals, played with aluminum casting as well. Nope, still got both eyes...

Good point sienne, on the math portion of the study, not very good at math and would be unlikely to notice the statistical portion being weak. Specifically, what needs done differently? We are having some testing quoted and would love to incorporate any improvements in the testing to make it real world as possible and still fit the scientific norms.

I think you might want to look that study over again, it wasn't about solid surface versus granite, it was about plastics versus granite. There was a difference on strains in their ability to colonize, but if you look at the results, granite did better than one type of plastic in one strain, but did worse on others. In that one strain, as you pointed out, the statistics say that it might not have done better if you take in the averaged results, it was close though.

I questioned the author of that study about the strain labeled MUSC, and it turned out that that stood for Muscle, as in chicken breast muscle. The EMB stood for the portugese word for packaging material. She said that both strains were the same, only difference was in how strong they were. She sent me the actual figures that the tables were based on, and the granite supported from about 160% to 590% more bacteria growth than the plastics. The granite did worse on the more dangerous stains.

The plastics were closer to laminate than solid surface, that is why we are retesting, nine different materials, in triplicate and will be using one of three labs, one in CA, one in Chicago or the guy that did two other studies but didn't inclulde solid surface. All are Phds, but I understand your point about research being like countertops, not all are good.

Stonegirl, I have been very responsible in posting info, all of this was and is backed by stonesites or scientific studies, we both know that. As for stone, I gain respect for it with every top, it is just so pretty and makes my cabinets look great. I respect it's strong points, but when I see others overselling the product, I will get involved. How many times have you seen granite compared to diamonds and topaz, being just below them in hardness? Then a few lines down, people are warned not to use a scotchbrite? These blanket statements are so misleading and harm all stone sellers in the end when consumers are unhappy with their choice. Sell it like it is, don't make blanket statements without saying that some granites are different, and the consumer will be better served. Not speaking to you, just salesmen in general.

And as to passion, that is to the job of making kitchens, I have no loyalty to any particlur product till it proves itself and performs as advertised. If it stops performing, it is gone.

Remans, thanks for pointing that out, but you forgot to post the link to the discussion. Note that I have been researching and asking questions long before I showed up here. The link is below.

Note that I am asking for info, not arguing with these experts. Let me quote from her reply"

"I have encountered a lot of claims from companies who distribute granite countertops and competitors of granite countertop distributors, but there seems to be very little accurate helpful information to answer your concerns." Then rather than being afraid of talking about the issue, she points me to the brazillian study. Later posts send me to specific sites to learn more.

What I don't get about you is that you seem to take the time to find stuff that supports my case rather than undermining it. That thread proves that I have been working on the issue in earnest. Also notice that she refers to the lack of research, which I am in the lead on getting started. I am only worried about selling a product that will get me sued someday, which is why I asked for help on that microbiology site!

Here is a link that might be useful: link to the bacterial site

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clipped on: 09.03.2007 at 11:41 pm    last updated on: 09.03.2007 at 11:41 pm

RE: To Carpentershop (Follow-Up #30)

posted by: carpentershop on 08.17.2007 at 12:39 am in Kitchens Forum

Paulines, I classify myself as expert on some issues of granite, ones that a whole bunch of stone only sellers don't want you to know about. I have spent thousand of hours studying the stuff, knowing that it was going to have to be a choice I offered to customers regarless of what I know about it. Plus, knowing other materials makes me more of an expert on countertop materials than someone who sells only stone, or only quartz or solid surface. Ignorant people don't know what they don't know.

Knowing of the issues about granite and refusing to allow a discussion of the issues is very unprofessional and anti customer. Giving a consumer all available relevent info before the sale is very professional. I have trouble understanding why you don't see that clearly. Not being snide, just curious why you have that position.

On the radiation issues, all regular readers here know that I have posted links to the Cyprus study that gave that info, and there are other places to find the radiation levels. It is not so hard to read a list and see if what the consumer likes is on the bad end, hardly need to be an expert to do that. Remember that I was suprised to find Cafe Brown on that list? Nothing wrong with learning something new....

Pewl, not for sure what you are getting at, or will take the high road if you were being cryptic. Still, you didn't answer the question about rodding and stonegirls stance that it is unnecessary. I gather from your statement
" To not rod it for both transport, and a quality job to the consumer would unacceptable in my book.", that you are saying that stonegirl is doing unacceptable work when she doesn't rodd. I agree wholeheartedly!

Stonegirl, you dodged the question by claiming that I said you were from china! I asked if you were the one over at stoneadvice.com that was battling the slab shops, never said you were from China! Good try!

So were you that installer of chinese blanks fighting that battle or not?

I wondered how long you would go with that Kevin bit, thought it was funny that you would assume the facts.

You found the solidsurfacealliance.org site because I posted it in one of my replies and was upfront about it! Funny that you would act like it was a secret!

There are other links to studies about granite and bacteria, and you know this too well from reading the site. How about the NASA funded study on the stones taken from the surface? Why not bring that one up too?

And all those scary pictures and all you can find is that stoneadvice.com mixed up an alcolol stain with a cleaner stain? How about the mouthwash stain, or the plumbers putty stain, the suction cup stains, the scotchbrite damage (oh! only diamonds are harder than granite, but don't use a scotchbrite!), how about the alcolhol stain in the picture above the one you think is classiffied incorrectly?

You claim respect for Mauzio, or what ever the guys name is, and he says that windex and 409 will spall granite! Is he right on this? Or is he misleading customers too? I have been reading his forum for about four years, and it is one of the most honest places to get info about the bad side of granite.

Yes the stone forums are great places to find horror stories about granite, where do you think I learned the bad points about grantie? From you and your buddies. Now you claim that these pictures and info taken from stone sites need corroberation? Were you guys just joking when you posted it?

Now again, as usual, you refer to half truths and falsehoods without being specific, cause you know that once you do, I will quote more stone sites and scientific studies to embarrass you further, as you put it.

I would love to have an intelligent conversation with you, might learn even more. How about we start right now, let's start with rodding on a new thread and hash it out by using the MIA study and we both know that some work was done over at stoneadvice.com or at least it was posted over there. You can read what Pewl posted about rodding, and haven't attacke him on it, thanked him for a compliment that I couldn't see, but didn't say boo about him saying that not rodding would be "unacceptable". Why pick a fight with me, when he has the same opinion that I do?

Paulines, that is exactly what my slab supplier told me and it matches what other stone sites claim about resined slabs. My manner of speaking and writing is to not claim something is beyond dispute when there are diverse opinions on the subject, but no scientific studies that settle the matter, thus my choice of words in that article. And again that link to that national countertop magazine and the article on my shop was posted by another person here, so it wasn't anything that was discovered. Surface fabrication has more stone machinery ads in it than solid surface or quartz ads, no suprise that R found it, probally suscribes to the magazine.

And paulines, show me where I ever compared myself to Mauzio. Put up or shut up on that point, my friend. And what is with all this anger and being snide? I thought you and I had gotten past that?

Fori, if you are an expert, please look at this link to the brazillina study on granite. Read carefully and offer your opinion on it. The link is at the bottom of this post.

For the record, these threads have one common factor, a whole bunch of people shouting down information gathered from scientific studies, stone association and granite fabrication sites. Almost all of them have ended with name calling, resulting in the bad info about granite being pulled along with the name calling comments posted by others. A pretty good tactic to use if you don't have the facts on your side, or so they think.

Now, how about we have that intelligent conversation that stonegirl wanted? How about we stop the snide comments that paulines advocated stopping only a day ago? Let's just discuss the studies and the info found on the stone sites like adults.

Here is a link that might be useful: Brazilian study on plastics and granite countertop

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clipped on: 09.03.2007 at 11:41 pm    last updated on: 09.03.2007 at 11:41 pm

RE: To Carpentershop (Follow-Up #22)

posted by: carpentershop on 08.15.2007 at 11:07 pm in Kitchens Forum

My apologies, paulines. I assumed you were a stone salesman due to the knowledge and tenacity showed on these issues. That said, many regular posters know about the name calling that has erupted because of these threads, and while ignorant is one of my favorite words, I have been called far, far worse by those who are on your side of the debate. There was one thread started specifically to ridicule info that I posted, despite the fact that it comes from stone sites or unbiased scientific studies.

Is this not so?

Here is the thing, I would not ever attempt to give advice on design of anything other than a kitchen or countertop and would shut my mouth if asked about colors or other design matters that were outside my area of expertise. While I might know a little, it would be a dangerous little, so others are better at this than I.

Can you see that by not working in this industry, dealing with this on a daily basis, you might not understand the questions, much less have the right answer on some topics. Asked respectfully in the spirit of what I hope is a better way for us all to get along.

And I know that those on this forum are not your typical "do me a pretty kitchen" homeowner. That is what I love about this place, you guys are my customers, or like my customers and I learn so much about what it is like to go through a remodel on the other side of the relationship.

Lets try this, you and I, if I write something you don't belive in, ask for more proof. I will not be offended. Just be fair and ask for proof from the other side of the debate as well.

Thanks for the welcome and I will try to get along better.

stonegirl, as I pointed out, they gave only two recomendations, labeled number one and number two. And I have already pointed out that after those two recomendations, they pointed out that it was in the fabricators interest to rodd to their recomendeded parameters, that it would make breakage less likely.

That aside, why not make these sink rails 50% stronger and 600% less deflection? Don't consumers deserve the best job you can do, or is "good enough" alright with you?

You aren't that stonegirl on stoneadvice.com that was battling the slab shops are you? The one that worked for the chinese blank company that fabricated in peoples driveways and garages? No offense intended if you aren't, but you sound familular.

Paulines, that is a very good question. I will try to answer it as best I can.

I will start by refering to that article that was written about my shop in May. For no other reason but to let you go back and check if what I said then matches what I say now. In it I explained why we had to start doing stone, poor quality, broken cabinets and long, long lead times.

We do a kitchen a week usually, and it must work like clockwork. If install the bottoms and have to wait six weeks for the granite or quartz to be installed (common around here), I can not install the cabs that sit on the top and sometimes they set the height to match on the frige and oven cabs, so it is critical that it gets done quickly and on schedule. Plus the quality of the seams was so bad to someone used to a solid surface seam and I knew from my research that better was possible. That is why I started doing it, now for why I do it.

When someone wants granite, you aren't likely to over come that emotional tie to the material. I honestly belive that granite makes one of the worst choices of material for more reasons than I have exposed here at gardenweb. Still, if that is what is going to be used, I can at least guide them away from the worst of the radionactive granites into more begnin types. Remember that Cyprus study? Some were what, many many times more radioactive than others? Also remember that that the OP asked about pics of RED granite and my only reply was that reds were more radioactive and to pick another color. I did not go on about the dangers, just said pick another color. After outraged stone sellers started shouting down the discussion, I defended my post, as you would if you knew you were right.

Bacteria and granite, if you would like I can show you a study done jointly by three universities where the found that granite was as much as 590% more prone to colonization. In this study, they didn't count the dead bacteria after sanitizing, they used computer controlled electron microscopes to actually count the living bacteria present on the samples. They warned about the need for sanitizing granite. There actual conclusion was that plastics were less prone to colonization than granite. I have even asked questions about the study and the authors have replied with more info and common sense answers, so this is a fact. Then take the NASA sponsored study that I posted, they found massive amount of bacteria living inside the crevices and pores of the granite samples, this is fact and not subject to debate unless someone shows a study that says otherwise. Or, google "granite bacteria" and spend some time reading. You will find scientific studies of bedrock teaming with bacteria, even were there are few nutrients and zero sunlight. It is fascinating to read at times, the wonders of nature.

So, if I will take the time and risk losing the sale by explaining all of this and the customer signs our standard granite material waiver, they have made an informed decision. If I don't sell the granite top, I will lose money on selling a top, and lose money on damage and waiting for some grade school educated yahoo to hack out the granite so I can finish the job.

Knowing this, what would you do in my shoes, and what would be the ethics behind your decision?

So the homeowner has made an informed decsion and I have no liability, and I will do a better job than the local hacks. Plus, you have heard stone only shops blame breakage on poorly leveled or installed cabinets, this way the responsibility rests with one man, me. And since I sell and fabricate all kinds of tops, I will give honest advice, if they use the new info (proven by links or printed material from the manufactures) and decide to not buy quartz, they buy granite or solid surface instead. I don't lose by being honest........ I tell people not to trust me because they think I am nice, trust me because we have the same goals and interests.

Isn't this better for consumers?

Thank you for being civil and I hope we can agree to disagree if you don't see the proof or logic behind my thinking.

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clipped on: 09.03.2007 at 11:40 pm    last updated on: 09.03.2007 at 11:40 pm

RE: To Carpentershop (Follow-Up #17)

posted by: carpentershop on 08.14.2007 at 09:50 pm in Kitchens Forum

OH, thanks for posting that, I am so lazy at times.

Note that there were two recomendation, right after the mention of revising their recomendations on rodding.

" MIA recommends:

1. Inserting threaded round steel rods (stainless preferred but not required) secured with epoxy or polyester resin (epoxy preferred but not required) in the bottom face of granite countertops along both sides where cutouts are required.
2. Applying fiberglass mesh to the bottom face of the granite at the cutouts. "

It is simple and obvious that they recomend rodding on all cutouts as well as adding the fiberglass mesh to the cutouts as well.

So why not be safe and rodd all cutouts like they recomend? True they pointed out that it saves fabractors money in the long run, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it is better to rod all cutouts. After all, they revised their recomendations because of this test.

So let your fabricator pocket the extra cash, or insist they do it right. Choice is good......

So do you accept the debate challenge? I will allow you to start the thread when you are ready. Lets deal with sink rodding first.

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clipped on: 09.03.2007 at 11:40 pm    last updated on: 09.03.2007 at 11:40 pm

RE: To Carpentershop (Follow-Up #13)

posted by: carpentershop on 08.14.2007 at 06:35 pm in Kitchens Forum

Again we have this debate between shops that want to save money on fabrication and shops that do it right to preserve their reputation.

Seems that the person who has the most to lose in this is Pewl, who has to live with this top for a long time. I would think that the customers right to have a long lasting countertop would trump the stone shops desire to make more money.

Pewl, I apologize for the behaviour of paulines and stonegirl. I have included a link to a thread about a 400 unit condo with failing sink rails due to poor rodding and no rodding.

Here is a link that might be useful: kitchen sink rodding failures in a 400 unit condo job

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clipped on: 09.03.2007 at 11:39 pm    last updated on: 09.03.2007 at 11:39 pm

RE: To Carpentershop (Follow-Up #4)

posted by: carpentershop on 07.22.2007 at 06:32 pm in Kitchens Forum

Been at a trade show in Vegas, sorry for the late reply.

First off, make sure they keep the sink rails over 4 1/2" to 5" wide if possible, pick another sink if you can.

Watch out for faucet placement. It must miss the rods for the holes to be drilled.

Ask your fabricator to use sink setters, metal rails that support the sink to add strength. They are cheap, around $40 to $50 per pair, installed.

Rodding helps keep breakage down, but it doesn't elimate it, it keeps the peices together so they can be repaired.

Stainless is good, but hardly anyone does it, quite expensive, and even stainless will rust eventually causing it to fail. Expect ten to twenty years, then expect the rod to rust and either split the top or become loose enough to allow someone leaning on the rail to break it.

3/8 is a bit small, 1/2" is better. Keep in mind that putting the bar increases tension qualities on the bottom, but not the top so any force from the bottom, say a pot hitting it will still break the rail, but someone leaning on it will have to push pretty hard or sit on it to break it.

Stone is very fragile and the rod helps a lot. Ask your fabricator if he has access to fiberglass rods, less strength but last longer.

The Marble Institute has some info on rodding, in their techincal section.

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clipped on: 09.03.2007 at 11:39 pm    last updated on: 09.03.2007 at 11:39 pm

RE: Checklist For Granite Installation? (Follow-Up #30)

posted by: carpentershop on 08.31.2007 at 11:33 pm in Kitchens Forum

terible, is that a racist remark? If so, you missed the mark. Not a jewelry wearer and wouldn't spend the money on a corvette, a new edgebander maybe.

Paulines,

think about this for a while. Have you ever seen such a long list of things to watch out for when buying a product? Why should this industry be in such a state that homeowners have to do so much research and supervision just to make sure they get what they pay for?

Were someone to walk into my shop with a long list like this, I would wonder why they would buy from someone that they had to babysit.

Again, not knocking this thread, I think it is sorely needed and will use this myself for my guys when they finish an install. Just the fact that it is needed and homeowners are having to do it gives me pause.

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clipped on: 09.03.2007 at 11:38 pm    last updated on: 09.03.2007 at 11:38 pm

RE: Checklist For Granite Installation? (Follow-Up #33)

posted by: carpentershop on 09.03.2007 at 09:12 pm in Kitchens Forum

Well, where are all these other checklists? I haven't heard of any. There are usually punch lists of problems on completed work, but never saw one for work yet to be done!

Not saying it isn't needed, it is, very much so, just commenting that other materials seem a lot less trouble to get what you pay for without all this effort.

Oh, come on revans1, everybody knows what you are like and everybody knows that you attack me on any occasion you happen across.

Here is what terible posted that puzzled me:

" I enjoyed the pictures of stonegirl on the job in the other post, would love to see the pictures of you standing next to your Corvette wearing all those gold chains around your neck."

I still don't get the reference, and gold chains seems to be a rap thing, just asked what was the point behind the remark. Some of you guys decided my name was Kevin for a while, now I thought one of you assigned a skin color as well. I am sure that terible was posting in jest, or would have handled it differently, I assure you. I was raised on army bases, and army brats tend to be more color blind than most and more sensitive to racist behaviour.

Terible is okay, pretty funny too, " Look at the shoes we wear for crying aloud. I could still cross the Ts and dot the Is of someone across the room with a kick box move wearing 6" stilettos." That is funny, don't care who you are!

Revans1, no need for me to ask the same question of you. I know the answer.

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clipped on: 09.03.2007 at 11:35 pm    last updated on: 09.03.2007 at 11:38 pm

RE: Tell me about your Sealing Granite experiences (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: carpentershop on 08.08.2007 at 10:06 pm in Kitchens Forum

Go to the Marble Institute of America, they have some good info on sealers. Look under consumer resources.

You should clean your top and not use it for 24 hours, then seal, wipe it off after the recomended wait period, and scrub the remainer off. A stone like Santa Cecillia need a lot of sealer, often. Let the sealer cure for another 24 hours before using for best results. I would not put stuff back on the counter till the sealer was cured.

Do the water test to tell you when to stop putting on sealer and when to seal again. Stone fabricators will tell you not to seal, or do it rarely (sells more stone), while sealer sellers will say to do it more often on a regular schedule.

A lot depends on your cleaning method. If you sanitize regularly, as you should, you will seal three times a year or more. If you use one of the balanced pH stone cleaners instead, the sealer will last longer, but you will have a lot of bacteria colonizing the stone.

Above all, read that MIA site on sealer, use and cleaningo of stone. It is pretty good, unbiased info.

A testy italian, would that be the character on find stone . com? He is easily riled, but gives good advice for the most part.

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clipped on: 09.03.2007 at 11:37 pm    last updated on: 09.03.2007 at 11:37 pm

RE: OT: Who are we? (Follow-Up #15)

posted by: carpentershop on 09.03.2007 at 06:11 pm in Kitchens Forum

Hi all,
I live in Oklahoma, I have a large shop that does cabinets, solid surface, quartz, laminate, wood, and granite countertops. College educated, also apprenticed in the carpenters union, have had my own business since I was 19, employing anywhere from three to forty employees. Late forties in age, three grown kids, a lovely young wife that does all the selling and takes care of all the office stuff. She also runs our website, a very talented lady.

We have two aging dogs, spend more on them than we do on ourselves some months. We live in a home that I built myself (that carpenter training came in handy) in 1996, built cheap on some things and continually improved and added on to. We used to do complete remodeling, so have done it all from plumbing, concrete work, electical, painting, roofing, you name it and we have done it. We currently specialize in kitchens, DW said we would do better and the work was easier, and she was right.

I run the Countertop Material Section over at Fabnet, a private section for members only, but you have to be invited even if you are a member. A very select group of shop owners, and one scientist/chemist/inventor/world traveling consultant dude that is priceless in getting to the bottom of material science. Some of our guys are second generation countertop people, and have personal knowledge that you can't find just anywhere.

I am also active in solidsufacealliance.org, a small site devoted to education and quality in the solid surface trade. We are currently taking bids on some bacterial testing on countertop materials, done by professional labs, at the Phd level. Also we are helping proof read a white paper on granite and radiation, the author has put together a ten page report covering over 10,000 pages of studies and govt regualtions from all over the world. Our input will be limited to readability from a laypersons viewpoint and to play devils advocate to make sure the study holds up to the author's peer review and publishing.

I read this forum to learn what it is like to be a consumer of a kitchen remodel company.

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clipped on: 09.03.2007 at 11:33 pm    last updated on: 09.03.2007 at 11:36 pm