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RE: New construction - dimmable recessed lights now or later? (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: lee676 on 09.24.2013 at 08:25 pm in Lighting Forum

Search these threads because there have been several similar questions that have been answered already. Short answer - builders almost always charge rip-off prices for upgrades; if it's something that can be done later by someone else (as opposed to something like a higher ceiling in the basement that can't be changed later), have a 3rd party do it.Do have the builder prepare it if possible by adding an extra electrical circuit and run a wire up to a closed elecrical box in the attic where you want the lights installed.

As for type, for new construction use LED. The overwhelming favourite here deservedly is the Ecosmart ECO-575L sold at Home Depot stores for $35 each, or $30 online if you buy 2 or more at a time. These are really a rebranded version of the very well-reputed Cree CR6 downlights; Ecosmart is a HD house brand, not a manufacturer. They fit into nearly any 6" can, and have built-in white trim rings that would normal cost $10 per recessed light, so the effective price of the LED bulbs is only $20. This for a flood lamp bulb that lasts for 15 years and draws only 9 watts, yet is bright and gives off high-quality light nearly indistinguishable from incandescent bulbs. And can be dimmed to 5% with most standard dimmers. There are 5000k daylight balanced versions available too that give off a cool, bluish light similar to sunlight, but most prefer the familiar warmer, more yellowish 2700K light from the warm white version, and a small 4" version too. But the warm-white 6" is the modern staple of recessed lighting.

There are some restrictions to how many lights can be dimmed with one switch that varies by the dimmer switch you use: not an issue if you use a non-dimming switch. There's also a brighter 800 lumen 6" LED available from Cree (home depot doesn't sell those) but they're about $20 more than the common 625 lumen model, as well as alternative color temperatures. Insist on the "TrueWhite" versions, not the "full definition" bulbs that Cree recently started selling; the latter dulls colors noticeably and is suitable only for hallways and such.


clipped on: 10.29.2013 at 12:02 pm    last updated on: 10.29.2013 at 12:02 pm

Stone Information and Advice (& Checklists)

posted by: buehl on 04.14.2008 at 02:56 am in Kitchens Forum

First off, I want to give a big thank-you to StoneGirl, Kevin, Joshua, Mimi, and others (past and current) on this forum who have given us many words of wisdom concerning stone countertops.

I've tried to compile everything I saved over the past 8 months that I've been on this Forum. Most of it was taken from a write-up by StoneGirl (Natural stone primer/granite 101); other threads and sources were used as well.

So...if the experts could review the information I've compiled below and send me comments (here or via email), I will talk to StarPooh about getting this on the FAQ.

Stone Information, Advice, and Checklists:

In an industry that has no set standards, there are many unscrupulous people trying to palm themselves off as fabricators. There are also a number of people with odd agendas trying to spread ill rumors about natural stone and propagate some very confusing and contradictory information. This is my small attempt at shedding a little light on the subject.

Slab Selection:

On the selection of the actual stone slabs - When you go to the slab yard to choose slabs for your kitchen, there are a few things you need to take note of:

  • Surface finish: The finish - be it polished, honed, flamed antiqued, or brushed, should be even. There should be no spots that have obvious machine marks, scratches, or other man made marks. You can judge by the crystal and vein pattern of the stone if the marks you see are man-made or naturally occurring. It is true that not all minerals will finish evenly and if you look at an angle on a polished slab with a larger crystal pattern, you can clearly see this. Tropic Brown would be a good example here. The black spots will not polish near as shiny as the brown ones and this will be very obvious on an unresined slab when looking at an acute angle against the light. The black specks will show as duller marks. The slab will feel smooth and appear shiny if seen from above, though. This effect will not be as pronounced on a resined slab.

    Bottom line when judging the quality of a surface finish: Look for unnatural appearing marks. If there are any on the face of the slab, it is not desirable. They might well be on the extreme edges, but this is normal and a result of the slab manufacturing process.

  • Mesh backing: Some slabs have a mesh backing. This was done at the plant where the slabs were finished. This backing adds support to brittle materials or materials with excessive veining or fissures. A number of exotic stones will have this. This does not necessarily make the material one of inferior quality, though. Quite often, these slabs will require special care in fabrication and transport, so be prepared for the fabricator to charge accordingly. If you are unsure about the slabs, ask your fabricator what his opinion of the material is.

  • Cracks and fissures: Yes - some slabs might have them. One could have quite the discussion on whether that line on the slab could be one or the other, so I'll try to explain it a little.

    • Fissures are naturally occurring features in stone. They will appear as little lines in the surface of the slabs (very visible in a material like Verde Peacock) and could even be of a different color than the majority of the stone (think of those crazed white lines sometimes appearing in Antique Brown). Sometimes they could be fused like in Antique Brown and other times they could be open, as is the case in the Verde Peacock example. They could often also go right through the body of the slab like in Crema Marfil, for instance. If you look at the light reflection across a fissure, you will never see a break - i.e., there will be no change in the plane on either side of a fissure.

    • A crack on the other hand is a problem... If you look at the slab at an oblique angle in the light, you will note the reflection of the shine on the surface of the stone. A crack will appear as a definite line through the reflection and the reflection will have a different appearance on either side of the line - there will be a break in the plane. Reject slabs like this. One could still work around fissures. Cracks are a whole other can of worms.

    • Resined slabs: The resin gets applied prior to the slabs being polished. Most of the resin then gets ground off in the polishing process. You should not be able to see just by looking at the surface of a slab whether it was resined or not. If you look at the rough sides of the slab, though, you will see some drippy shiny marks, almost like varnish drips. This should be the only indication that the slab is resined. There should never be a film or layer on the face of the stone. With extremely porous stones, the resining will alleviate, but not totally eliminate absorption issues and sealer could still be required. Lady's dream is an example. This material is always resined, but still absorbs liquids and requires sealer.

    • Test the material you have selected for absorption issues regardless - it is always best to know what your stone is capable of and to be prepared for any issues that might arise. Some stones indeed do not require sealer - be they resined or not. Baltic Brown would be an example here. It will not absorb one iota of anything, but it is still resined to eliminate a flaking issue.

Tests (especially for Absolute Black) (using a sample of YOUR slab):

  • To verify you have true AB and not dyed: Clean with denatured alcohol and rub marble polishing powder on the face. (Get denatured alcohol at Home Depot in the paint department)

  • Lemon Juice or better yet some Muratic Acid: will quickly show if the stone has alot of calcium content and will end up getting etched. This is usually chinese stone, not indian.

  • Acetone: The Dying usually is done on the same chinese stone. like the others said, acetone on a rag will reveal any dye that has been applied

  • Chips: Using something very hard & metal�hit the granite sharply & hard on edges to see if it chips, breaks, or cracks


  • Before the templaters get there...
    • Make sure you have a pretty good idea of your faucet layout--where you want the holes drilled for all the fixtures and do a test mock up to make sure you have accounted for sufficient clearances between each fixture.

    • Be sure you test your faucet for clearances not just between each fixture, but also between the faucet and the wall behind the faucet (if there is one). You need to be sure the handle will function properly.

    • Make sure that the cabinets are totally level (not out by more than 1/8") before the counter installers come in.

    • Check how close they should come to a stove and make sure the stove sits up higher than the counter.

    • Make sure they have the sink/faucet templates to work from.

    • Make sure have your garbage disposal air switch on hand or know the diameter

  • If you are not putting in a backsplash, tell them

  • Double check the template. Make sure that the measurements are reasonable. Measure the opening for the range.

  • Seam Placement: Yet another kettle of fish (or can of worms, depending on how you look at it, I guess!) Seam placement is ultimately at the discretion of the fabricator. I know it is not a really popular point of view, but that is just the way it is. There really is more to deciding where the seam would go than just the size of the slab or where the seam would look best in the kitchen.

    Most stone installations will have seams. They are unavoidable in medium or large sized kitchens. One hallmark of a good fabricator is that they will keep the seams to a minimum. It seems that a good book could be written about seams, their quality, and their placement�and still you will have some information that will be omitted! For something as seemingly simple as joining two pieces of stone, seams have evolved into their own universe of complexity far beyond what anybody should have fair cause to expect!

  • Factors determining seam placement:

    • The slab: size, color, veining, structure (fissures, strength of the material an other characteristics of the stone)

    • Transport to the job site: Will the fabricated pieces fit on whatever vehicle and A-frames he has available

    • Access to the job site: Is the house on stilts? (common in coastal areas) How will the installers get the pieces to where they need to go? Will the tops fit in the service elevator if the apartment is on the 10th floor? Do the installers need to turn tight corners to get to the kitchen? There could be 101 factors that will influence seam placement here alone.

    • Placement and size of undermount (or other) cut-outs. Some fabricators like to put seams in undermount sinks, some do not. We, for instance will do it if absolutely necessary, and have done so with great success, but will not do so as general practice. We do like to put seams in the middle of drop-in appliances and cut-outs and this is a great choice for appearances and ease of installation.

    • Location of the cabinets: Do the pieces need to go in between tall cabinets with finished sides? Do the pieces need to slide in under appliance garages or other cabinetry? How far do the upper cabinets hang over? Is there enough clearance between the vent hood and other cabinets? Again the possibilities are endless and would depend on each individual kitchen lay-out and - ultimately -

    • Install-ability of the fabricated pieces: Will that odd angle hold up to being moved and turned around to get on the peninsula if there is no seam in it? Will the extra large sink cut-out stay intact if we hold the piece flat and at a 45 degree angle to slide it in between those two tall towers? Again, 1,001 combinations of cabinetry and material choices will come into play on this question.

    You can ask your fabricator to put a seam at a certain location and most likely he will oblige, but if he disagrees with you, it is not (always) out of spite or laziness. Check on your fabricator's seams by going to actual kitchens he has installed. Do not trust what you see in a showroom as sole testament to your fabricator's ability to do seams.

    With modern glues and seaming methods, a seam could successfully be put anywhere in an installation without compromising the strength or integrity of the stone. If a seam is done well, there is - in theory - no "wrong" location for it. A reputable fabricator will also try to keep the number of seams in any installation to a minimum. It is not acceptable, for instance to have a seam in each corner, or at each point where the counter changes direction, like on an angled peninsula.

    Long or unusually large pieces are often done if they can fit in the constraints of a slab. Slabs as a rule of thumb will average at about 110"x65". There are bigger slabs and quite often smaller ones too. Check with the fabricator or the slab yard. They will be more than happy to tell you the different sizes of slabs they have available. Note, though, that the larger the slabs, the smaller the selection of possible colors. Slab sizes would depend in part on the capabilities of the quarry, integrity of the material or the capabilities of the machinery at the finishing plant. We have had slabs as wide as 75" and as long as 130" before, but those are monsters and not always readily available.

  • Generally, it is not a good idea to seam over a DW because there's no support for the granite, and anything heavy placed at or near the seam would stress the stone, possibly breaking it.

  • Rodding is another issue where a tremendous amount of mis-information and scary stories exist: The main purpose for rodding stone would be to add integrity to the material around cut-outs. This is primarily for transport and installation and serves no real purpose once the stone is secured and fully supported on the cabinets. It would also depend on the material. A fabricator would be more likely to rod Ubatuba than he would Black Galaxy, for instance. The flaky and delicate materials prone to fissures would be prime candidates for rodding. Rodding is basically when a fabricator cuts slots in the back of the stone and embeds steel or fiberglass rods with epoxy in the slots in the stone. You will not see this from the top or front of the installation. This is an "insurance policy" created by the fabricator to make sure that the stone tops make it to your cabinets all in one piece

  • Edges: The more rounded an edge is, the more stable it would be. Sharp, flat edges are prone to chipping under the right (or rather wrong) circumstances. Demi or full bullnose edges would almost entirely eliminate this issue. A properly milled and polished edge will be stable and durable regardless of the profile, though. My guess at why ogee and stacked edges are not more prevalent would be purely because of cost considerations. Edge pricing is determined by the amount of work needed to create it. The more intricate edge profiles also require an exponentially larger skill set and more time to perfect. The ogee edge is a very elegant edge and can be used to great effect, but could easily look overdone if it is used everywhere. We often advise our clients to combine edges for greater impact - i.e., eased edge on all work surfaces, and ogee on the island to emphasize the cabinetry or unusual shape.
    Edge profiles are largely dependent on what you like and can afford. There is no real pro or con for regular or laminated edges. They all have their place in the design world. Check with your fabricator what their capabilities and pricing are. Look at actual kitchens and ask for references.


  • Seams:
    One hallmark of a good fabricator is that they will keep the seams to a minimum [StoneGirl]

    • A generic good quality seam should have the following characteristics:
      • It should be flat. According to the Marble Institute of America (MIA) a minimal amount of lippage is acceptable (1/32"), but conscientious fabricators all strive for a perfectly flat and smooth joint.

      • It should be narrow - as in smaller than 1/16". (I think the MIA stipulates no larger than 1/8", but that is pushing it - and only if the fabricator bevels the edges of the seam, almost similar to the edge of a stone tile. This is, thank goodness, not a standard practice any more!)

      • The color on either side of the seam should match as closely as possible. On regularly patterned stones like Ubatuba for example - there should be no variation. On stones with variation in colors or veins, the match should be made as close as was humanly possible.

      • Vein direction should flow. The MIA suggests a single direction of vein flow, but it is acceptable IF DISCUSSED WITH THE CLIENT to change vein direction on a seam if no other option is available. This would happen in book matched slabs - you will have a "butterfly" seam in this case. In other cases, the fabricator could put a miter seam in a corner and change vein direction 90 degrees. This is usually done with extremely linear veining like Bamboo Green, for example, but this is something that should be discussed with the fabricator and agreed upon by the client.

      • The seam on the finished edge of the stone should NOT dip in and create a divot in the edge. When you run your fingers over the edge, you should not be able to feel the location of the seam at all.

      • The thickness of the slabs on either side of the seam should be equal (or feathered out so that there is no discernible difference)

      • The glue in the seam should be of a color that matches the stone as closely as possible. Glue joints that are too light or too dark will show up something terrible. The idea behind tinting the glue is to try to make the seam "disappear" or something relatively close to it

  • Checklist:
    • Check the seams for evenness and smoothness.

      • Make sure that the seams are neat and clean.

      • Make sure that the seams are not obvious.

      • Make sure the seams are butted tight

      • Make sure that there are no scratches, pits, or cracks

    • If sealing is necessary (not all granites need to be sealed):

      • Make sure that the granite has been sealed

      • If more than one application of sealer was applied, ask how long they waited between applications

      • Ask which sealer has been used on the granite.

    • Make sure the sink reveal is consistent all the away around

    • Check the gap of the granite at the wall junctions.

    • Check for inconsistent overhangs from the counter edges

    • Check for chips. These can be filled.

    • Make sure the top drawers open & close

    • Make sure that you can open & close your dishwasher

    • Make sure the stove sits up higher than the counter

    • Make sure that you have the appropriate clearances for your appliances

    • Check the edge all around, a good edge should have the following characteristics:
      • Shine: The edge polish should match the top polish in depth and clarity. The edge should not be milky, dull, or waxy.

      • The edge should not have "waves". Eyeball along the edge. A good edge should have a mirror like reflection and be fairly flat. Waves that you can see or feel are not a good thing.

      • The aris (very top of the edge) should be crisp and straight, even on a bullnose edge. Once again you can see this by eyeballing along the very top end of the edge profile. A wavy, dippy aris is poor craftsmanship.

      • A good edge will have a consistent profile. It will not be larger in some spots or smaller in others.

      • A good edge should also have NO tooling lines. These will be fine lighter/white lines running along the edge. This is a mark of a poor edge polish, of a CNC machine that is not set correctly, and a lack of hand finishing. This is common when a company has only mechanical fabrication (i.e., CNC machines or line polishers) and no skilled hand fabricators to finish the work properly.

    • Run your hands around the entire laminated edge of yor counters to make sure they are smooth

    • Check surrounding walls & cabinets for damage

Miscellaneous Information:

  • More than all the above and below, though, is to be present for both the templating as well as having the templates placed on your slabs at the fabricator's
    If you canot be there, then have a lengthy conversation about seam placement, ways to match the movement, and ways to color-match the counters that will be joined at the seam

  • Find a fabricator who is a member of the SFA

  • When they polish your stone for you don't let them wax it. It will look terrible in 2 months when the wax wears off.

  • Don't use the Magic Eraser on granite--especially AB

  • Any slab with more fill (resin) than stone is certainly a no-no!!

  • When you do check for scratches, have overhead lighting shining down so scratches are easier to see

  • Don't let them do cutouts in place (granite dust becomes a major issue)

  • Granite dust can be a problem...some have heard of SS appliances & hoods damaged by the dust, others have heard of drawer glides being ruined by the dust

  • If you have wood floors--especially if you're in the process of staining or finishing them--make sure that they don't spill or drip granite sealer on the wood floors. Apparently the sealer interferes with the stain or finish process.

  • Suggested Prep for Installation:
    • Remove any drawers and pullouts beneath any sections that will be cut or drilled onsite, e.g., sink cutouts and/or faucet, soap dispenser, air gap, instant hot etc. holes, cooktop cutouts.

    • Then just cover the glides themselves with a few layers of blue painter's tape (or some combo of plastic wrap and tape)

    • If you make sure to cover the top of the glides and attach some of the tape to the cab wall as well (to form sort of a seal)and cover the rest of the glides completely with tape, you should be fine.

    • Usually the fabricators will have someone holding a vacuum hose right at the spot where they are drilling or cutting, so very little granite dust should be landing on the glides. What little dust escapes the vacuum will be blocked by the layer(s) of tape.

    • When done w/installation, remove the tape and use a DustBuster (or similar) on all the cabinets and glides

  • Countertop Support:

    • If your granite is 2 cm thick, then there can be no more then 6" of of unsupported span with a 5/8" subtop

    • If your granite is 3 cm thick, then there can be no more then 10" of unsupported span - no subtop required

    • If you need support, the to determine your corbel dimensions:

    • Thickness of Stone - Dimension of Unsupported Span = Corbel Dimensino

    • i.e., an 18" total overhang in 2 cm would require a 12" corbe; the same overhang in 3 cm would require an 8" corbel


see above suggestions for testing absolute black granite to verify authenticity and source
clipped on: 09.25.2013 at 09:01 am    last updated on: 09.25.2013 at 09:02 am

Bath reveal - small contemporary master bath

posted by: newbie14 on 09.23.2013 at 05:11 pm in Bathrooms Forum

Thank you GardenWeb for helping me plan my 5 x 10.5 master bath remodel. Hope this reveal helps you with your projects!
- Main Floor tile: 18x18 Daltile City View in Downtown Nite color
- Shower wall/floor tile: 12x24 Happy Floors Neostile in Ash color
- Glass accent tile: Epoch Color Blends Arena from Home Depot
- Tile trim: Schluter Jolly in anodized aluminum - nice clean finished look, no need for bullnose tile
- Granite: Giallo Ornamental Light
- Vanity: Merillat, Portrait with 5-Piece Front, Maple Kona finish (I do not recommend Merillat. The quality is poor - drawers misaligned, finish scratches easily, etc.)
- Sink/Shower Fixtures: Delta Cassidy
- Sconces: Murray Feiss, Newbury
- Recessed cabinet: Concealed Cabinet in Coffee Bean
- Vent Fan/Heater: Panasonic Whisper Warm FB-11VH2 - it's quiet and really keeps the steam out!
- Toilet: Kohler Cimarron comfort height round. We considered a Toto, but this Kohler works fine. A bit too tall for me (I'm 5'3") but DH (6') loves it.


shower tile without bullnose edge.
clipped on: 09.24.2013 at 05:06 pm    last updated on: 09.24.2013 at 05:07 pm

LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

posted by: davidtay on 01.30.2012 at 01:27 am in Lighting Forum

A collection of tips/ answers
Since kitchens have higher lighting requirements, I like to use 35 lumen per sq ft as a rule to compute the number of lights. If there are additional sources of light that will be used, the output (lumens not watts) from those sources can be deducted from the total.

Placement/ layout
1. Cans should be > 24 to 30 inches from the wall (on center). Most countertop spaces have upper cabinets (typically ~ 12" deep) + crown molding. The edge of the can may be spaced ~ 12" away from the edge of the crown molding (if present or cabinet if there is no crown molding) making the average distance between 26 to 30 inches.

2. Assuming the need for a fairly uniformly lit space @ 35 lumens per sq ft, the cans may have to be spaced closer together - between 3 - 4 ft apart (if all general lighting is provided by recessed lights). A fairly regular pattern is preferable to a random layout.

3. The actual layout of cans will be impacted by the location of ceiling joists, HVAC ducting, electrical wiring, plumbing, ceiling height, fire suppression sprinklers and other obstructions above the ceiling.

The Cree LR6 series lamps do not dim as well as the later models (CR6, ...). ELV dimmers probably work better with LR6 than incandescent dimmers since the total load of the lights may not meet the minimum load requirement for the incandescent dimmer.

Dimmers such as the Lutron Diva CL dimmers work well. The max output is 95%.

Some Choices (in order of preference) and notes
Cree CR6 or ECO-575 (Home Depot branded CR6)
ECO4-575 (Home Depot branded Cree CR4 4" recessed light)
The above are only available in 2700k light color.

Cree LR6 series - including the LE6.

The Cree CR6 and LR6 lamps will not fit into 5" housings.

The standard LR6 behaves more like a surface mount than a recessed light as the LED emitters are close to the surface and the recess is shallow. Some may not like the amount of light spillage (standard LR6).

There is a higher output version of the LR6 that has a much deeper recess.

To prevent the Cree lamps from falling out, the 3 prongs have to be fully extended and a slight clockwise twist made when push installing. The slight clockwise twist will ensure that the prongs are fully extended.

The Cree lamps are currently the best available today (2012).

Sylvania RT-6, RT-4. The lights could be easier to install than Cree lamps as they utilize the torsion spring mechanism. However, the lights do not look as pleasant as the Cree lamps.

The Cree and Sylvania lamps do outperform 26W CFLs (and incandescents) in a standard recessed can in terms of light spread and output as the standard bulb in a can solution traps a significant amount of light. The Cree and Sylvania recessed lamp solutions referenced above have all the LED elements facing outwards so that the effective light output is higher.

The CRI (Color Rendition Index) of Cree and Sylvania recessed lamps > 80.

There is no warm up time required for Cree recessed lamps, unlike CFL light bulbs.

Most recessed lighting is used with flat ceilings. Sloped ceilings would require special solutions such as the LE6 or some other form of lighting (i.e. -non recessed lighting).

Some common objections to recessed can lights stem from
1. looks and performance of traditional can lights (standard bulb in a can)
2. swiss cheese effect from too many holes.


clipped on: 09.23.2013 at 09:08 pm    last updated on: 09.23.2013 at 09:08 pm

RE: Bertazzoni Opinions (Fan & Heat Question) (Follow-Up #21)

posted by: nabq on 04.09.2011 at 02:14 am in Appliances Forum


I don't understand why your salesperson would say you can't use any decent venting microwave over the Bertazzoni. Maybe he's thinking because it's categorized as a pro-style range, it has more power than it does. The 30" Bertazzoni's total BTU output is only 36,000. The GE Cafe's is 56,000. If a microwave can be used over the GE, it should be fine over the Berta.

By the way, the recommendation is to have 10 to 15 cfm (cubic feet per minute) of air evacuation ability in your vent blower per 1000 BTU's of range power, so you'd need 360 - 540 cfm to vent your Bertazzoni properly. A number of venting microwaves, even a Kenmore, offer a 600cfm blower. I'd say the important thing is to get a decent cfm capacity. The over-the-range microwave Bertazzoni makes is designed for use with their stoves, but it only has 300cfm. I think they're figuring you're never going to have all the burners on at full blast at once, but I'd still aim for a 400 - 600 cfm model microwave to be on the safe side.

Bertazzoni owners: I'm helping my Mom decide whether to get a 30" Bertazzoni. Our only worry is the tininess of the oven. At 2.9 cubic feet, it's SO small. Any comments on that would be of great help to us. Also, how inconvenient is it to use a separate oven thermometer if we go with one of the models that don't have a temperature gauge?

Thank you.


recommend 10-15 cfm per 1000BTUs of range power for hood. What does this translate to for 36" berta?
clipped on: 09.23.2013 at 01:24 pm    last updated on: 09.23.2013 at 01:24 pm

RE: Bertazzoni Opinions (Fan & Heat Question) (Follow-Up #17)

posted by: corgibob on 03.30.2011 at 11:17 pm in Appliances Forum

Hello all,
This is a post I just left re: Long-term Berta Owners. I'm only a 2-week owner but have been using it almost 3xs/day every day in almost every way. Designnov has had her/his Berta 3 years and has slight issues with heat. Here was my experience tonight. Note: The fan is very quiet and actually pleasant and until tonight the air was simply room temperature. None of us in my household have noticed any issue with hot air blowing out.
(Begin post)
Just roasted in my oven for 4 hours! I had 4 dishes in there at once--love the wider oven! There was a bit of spattering, so it's officially "broken in".

An interesting development. I went into the kitchen after about 20 minutes and the air was warm--not hot, but not room temp, either. I realized my hood wasn't on. The salespeople at the appliance store said a good habit to get into is to turn the hood on (low) right before cooking. I forgot this time and maybe that was the difference. I turned it on low, left the kitchen for about 5 minutes and really noticed the difference when I came back in. It was that fast.

Designnov, I don't have the most powerful, high-end hood, but it's pretty fancy! If you turn it on low, it's sensor will detect if it needs to go to a higher level and do so automatically. I don't believe my Berta ever gets HOT, or even warm, but I DO believe my hood (Broan, QP3 Series keeps things nice in my tiny (8 x 10) kitchen. The cfms have been sufficient even with all 6 burners going. It has only kicked up to Boost mode once. I paid about $360.
(End post)
Hope this helps. My husband & I loooove this new range AND the hood. I have emailed Bertazzoni and called their Customer Care number a few times before and after purchase (research and some specific questions) and I have been impressed with their quick and helpful responses.


use hood to cool down air that is blown out of oven
clipped on: 09.23.2013 at 01:17 pm    last updated on: 09.23.2013 at 01:17 pm

RE: Bertazzoni Opinions (Fan & Heat Question) (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: rococogurl on 01.08.2010 at 08:34 am in Appliances Forum

I have a new Bertazzoni and I'm very happy with it. I don't understand why there seems to be misinformation posted about it but I find there is (they do 0 p.r.). Before I purchased I checked with owners here who had the range and were all satisfied, as I am.

This is a basic gas range with good ignition, excellent even heat, excellent simmer (even the highest-output burner has a 2-ring set up). It's elegant, but it's a rock. It's made in Italy so it's not geared to the American market at all, either in styling or the way it operates. No self-clean, f.ex.

It has electric ignition -- you open burners all the way up to light, then turn them down.

The oven has convection -- the fan runs when it's on just like every other convection oven -- which kept the front of the range cool when I cooked my turkey at Thanksgiving. The oven light is excellent. Unlike other ovens, this one does not heat average -- it's very steady. Heats up quickly.

All the oven racks and stovetop racks are very heavy duty.

Two things to know: the lowest oven setting is 275. There's no digital readout for the oven so it requires a good oven thermometer to verify the temperature. Once you set it though, it does that wonderful old-fashioned gas oven thing -- it cooks like a dream. But the dial does not allow for precision.

I was in the same price range and looked at the GE Cafe, Fisher & Paykel and Electrolux. I had issues with each of those. I'd also look at the American Range (good reports), which might be a tick up in price. Some here tout the nxr, a Chinese-made range which wasn't anywhere I looked (cannot imagine what service would be like) while the Berta was sold by all the Wolf and Viking dealers as the quality lower end choice.


purchased 30" berta, says 36" takes a while to heat up
clipped on: 09.23.2013 at 12:54 pm    last updated on: 09.23.2013 at 01:05 pm

RE: Bertazzoni Opinions (Fan & Heat Question) (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: rococogurl on 01.08.2010 at 05:22 pm in Appliances Forum

All convection ovens blow hot air out of the oven! Many stay on afterward to cool the ovens and blow cool air.

Berta has dual control -- not necessary to use the convection at all (another thing never noted). Optional convection might be something to check for.

The issue with convection oven venting and ranges is where the oven vents. It can vent across the top, or somewhere around the door. (Berta vents above the door).

This is more often discussed with wall ovens -- some complain about those fans blowing hot air into the kitchen or that the fans run for a long time after the oven is turned off and they are noisy.

Much less discussed is convection-oven venting on ranges. But it's important if it's a convection-only range. Perhaps that's because vent hoods required for high BTU pro ranges tend to be quite powerful and actually pull the heat up and out. So, a good vent hood should help with that issue.

My pet peeve is fully electronic ovens that vent hot air below the electronic boards -- not so great for the electronics. So where they vent is always something I double-check.

This usually doesn't become an issue until Thanksgiving when the oven is going for hours and someone discovers the control knobs are suddenly scary.

As for the other, having and using are often mutually exclusive when it comes to kitchens. LOL.


berta venting issues
clipped on: 09.23.2013 at 01:04 pm    last updated on: 09.23.2013 at 01:05 pm

RE: Helpful to have shield protective coating on shower glass doo (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: millworkman on 01.11.2013 at 09:20 am in Bathrooms Forum

Shower Guard is the best as it is actually built in as the glass is manufactured so it is definitely permanent and has a lifetime warranty as opposed to all the others which is an applied protectant with 10 yr warranties. The applied products are decent and work just not as durable nor good in the long run.


shower guard is to prevent water spots on glass shower doors
clipped on: 09.23.2013 at 11:22 am    last updated on: 09.23.2013 at 11:23 am

RE: Marble, quartzite and other rocks in the kitchen (Follow-Up #27)

posted by: karin_mt on 03.16.2013 at 09:47 am in Kitchens Forum

Oh my Gretchen!

Well, those old boyfriends are better off left behind. I applaud that you've just come to terms with it and are moving on. And Fancy Feast leaves an etch? That would be the last straw around here.

Chipping can be specific to an individual rock, as opposed to a broad category of rocks, but in general the granites and quartzites are going to be a lot stronger than marble. I think if I were in your shoes I would find the right stone first, and then inquire with the fabricator or post here to see if it has chipping tendencies and do an edge treatment accordingly. I do believe the rounded edges are less prone to chipping.

Also check out white granites like River White, Alaska White, Delicatus, Snowflake. I am not all that well-versed in granite names, but I believe those are on the right track. One of the backsplash threads that is currently running has River White and it's really pretty. Watch out for Antartide/Antarctica which is a very hard quartzite that is prone to chipping.

Good luck with your new search. Excellent that you will be able to go shopping armed with glass bottle, lemon and contractor. Sounds like your bases are well covered! Keep us posted as you search for the new, perfect life partner. Make sure the new stone has a healthy relationship with his mother. ;)


clipped on: 09.23.2013 at 10:54 am    last updated on: 09.23.2013 at 10:54 am

Marble, quartzite and other rocks in the kitchen

posted by: karin_mt on 02.27.2013 at 11:35 pm in Kitchens Forum

The thread about Super White, quartzite, marble and all things stone has run its course up to the 150 post limit. Who knew we'd all have so much fun with that topic? So we'll start a new one here. I guess the first thread was Rocks 101, so this one must be Rocks 102.

I'll reiterate some key points here:

Quartzite and marble are hopelessly (deliberately?) mixed up in the decorative stone industry. My point, aside from just loving rocks, is to help folks learn how to tell the difference between the two so you are not at the mercy of a sales rep when a multi-thousand dollar purchase hangs in the balance.

Quartzite is much harder than marble and will not etch when exposed to acids. You can tell the difference between quartzite and marble by doing the scratch test.

Take a glass bottle with you when you go stone shopping. Find a rough, sharp edge of the stone. Drag the glass over the edge of the stone. Press pretty hard. Try to scratch the glass with the stone.

Quartzite will bite right into the glass and will leave a big scratch mark.
Any feldspar will do the same. (Granites are made mostly of feldspar)

Calcite and dolomite (that's what marble and limestone are made of) will not scratch. In fact you will be able to feel in your hand that the rock won't bite into the glass. It feels slippery, no matter how hard you press.

PS - don't press so hard that you risk breaking the glass bottle. You shouldn't need to press that hard!

That aside, we can talk about other rocks too. Coal, pumice, sparkly crystals, you name it. OK, I guess we're mostly interested in kitchen rocks. :)

Here is a link that might be useful: the lowdown on Super White (aka Rocks 101)

This post was edited by karin_mt on Wed, Feb 27, 13 at 23:41


clipped on: 09.23.2013 at 10:49 am    last updated on: 09.23.2013 at 10:49 am

RE: Low maintenance shower surround suggestions? (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: kaysd on 08.15.2013 at 02:11 pm in Bathrooms Forum

I just posted about Kerlite on the Kitchens forum, but I swear I am not a salesperson, lol. I don't want to clean grout in the shower either, so we are using large sheets of Kerlite Plus on the 2 side walls. Each of the walls will be done in a single piece of material, so no grout lines! (The back wall is the accent wall using "smaller" (12x24") tiles in a brighter color with epoxy grout.)

Kerlite is a porcelain stoneware tile that is 3mm thick (3.5 mm for the plus version which has a fiberglass backing and is recommended if you need to do cutouts, like for faucets). We paid $200 per 100x300 cm (39-3/8"x118-7/64") slab (about $6.15 sq ft) for the Kerlite Plus in Via Tornabuoni from the Elegance series (one of the more expensive color series they offer). It is a really pretty medium gray that looks like limestone. They have several different different series that have patterns that look like different types of natural stone, wood, concrete or solids. Our color was a special order from Italy that took several weeks, but the local distributor also had some other colors in stock.

Kerlite comes in the following sizes:

• whole slab, 100x300 cm (approx. 39-3/8"x118-7/64");
• slab, 40x100 cm (15-3/4"x39-3/8");
• slab, 100x100 cm (39-3/8"x39-3/8");
• slab, 50x50 cm (19-11/6"x19-11/16");
• border tile, 4.9x100 cm (1-59/64"x39-3/8").

Our shower should be tiled in about 2 weeks, and I am really excited to see how it turns out.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kerlite colors


clipped on: 09.23.2013 at 10:33 am    last updated on: 09.23.2013 at 10:33 am

RE: got my white macaubas installed! (Follow-Up #29)

posted by: michoumonster on 03.01.2013 at 12:22 am in Kitchens Forum

island, most slabs in my area are 2cm, so most homes around here do a built-up edge. there is a plywood layer that lays on top of the cabinets. then the counters lay on top of the plywood. at the end of the counter is where the fabircator glues an extra piece to make the edge thicker, giving it the look of a solid thicker slab.

southernmum, my island is walnut wood.


clipped on: 09.23.2013 at 10:16 am    last updated on: 09.23.2013 at 10:18 am

RE: got my white macaubas installed! (Follow-Up #21)

posted by: michoumonster on 02.28.2013 at 07:12 pm in Kitchens Forum

kaysd, the counters are 2.25". which i totally copied from firsthouse_mp. i really like the thickness from that extra quarter inch from the usual built-up edge. which edge profile did you choose for your counters? I am eagerly waiting to see yours!

island, the stone i got is called white macaubas at some yards and was called luce di luna and calacutta quartzite at other yards. I have also seen it called bianca quartzite. In my area, there are a few places that have it available in cross-cut format, which is what I got, which has fewer linear veins. The other format is straight cut, with the more striped effect. If you do a search, for michelle16 also NaRo on GW, you can see their gorgeous cross-cut counters. sochi, kiffgirl, jdknyc, and Babs711 have the straight-cut, which are also beautiful!
on the wall, i plan on putting a stainless steel apron sink. i guess they took it out to install the plumbing.
here is a pic of my island slab at the slabyard. it looks so much more dramatic as a whole slab, that it was almost a shame to cut it up.

This post was edited by michoumonster on Thu, Feb 28, 13 at 21:06


clipped on: 09.23.2013 at 10:17 am    last updated on: 09.23.2013 at 10:17 am