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RE: Ipe finishes (Follow-Up #8)

posted by: john_hyatt on 01.12.2010 at 11:42 pm in Porches & Decks Forum

Man I got to say the twp water base gets my attention its holding up really well on the ipe test blocks out back. I am using it now on my latest project the only down side is the quick set up time, that is fast.

I talked to the twp Folks,they are aware of that drawback so far misting might help is what I got. Already used it on the 2x2 ipe rail detail shop built and I love it have to wait for puting it on the deck will let you know.

Woodrich is basicly twp 100 series slightley modified and it works well too used it on my very own outside stairway just to see, will still stick to the 116 no need to change unless this water stuff works better.

One thing I havent had to pay for the WB yet the first gal was free if there is a big jump in $ I will keep it in the tool box. J.
> messeners is junk <

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clipped on: 02.13.2010 at 06:03 pm    last updated on: 02.13.2010 at 06:03 pm

RE: Optimum TWP time sequence on Ipe (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: john_hyatt on 08.11.2009 at 07:45 am in Porches & Decks Forum

In the sprit of a sound mind,,a person would most probley wait until the first coat was not sticky to put on the second coat. J.

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clipped on: 02.13.2010 at 05:47 pm    last updated on: 02.13.2010 at 05:47 pm

RE: Optimum TWP time sequence on Ipe (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: john_hyatt on 08.10.2009 at 03:41 pm in Porches & Decks Forum

Second coat on right away,twp calls it wet on wet, start building coats as soon as possible as weather aggres. Use the spirt of a sound mind building coats. The more coats the longer it takes twp to set up it acctualy burns into itself. J.

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clipped on: 02.13.2010 at 05:47 pm    last updated on: 02.13.2010 at 05:47 pm

Optimum TWP time sequence on Ipe

posted by: rbfactor on 08.10.2009 at 12:33 pm in Porches & Decks Forum

My Ipe deck is now resanded and back to bare wood. I'm ready to apply TWP 116 and want to make sure I do this thing right. The last time I used TWP, I let too much time go by before putting on the 2nd and 3rd coats and parts of my deck turned grey. This is what I'm thinking now:

-First coat now
-Second coat in 2-3 months.
-Third coat 6 months later.
-Then one coat every year or two.

Also, should I use a percarb cleaner or oxalic acid wash or both before putting on additional coats?

Anybody have pics of their deck with multiple coats of TWP??

Any input would be appreciated. Many thanks!

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clipped on: 02.13.2010 at 05:46 pm    last updated on: 02.13.2010 at 05:46 pm

RE: Ipe board scalloping (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: john_hyatt on 09.18.2009 at 08:39 am in Porches & Decks Forum

TWP 100 series is a build coat finish the Co recomends wet on wet or the second coat on right away. I have gone beyond that. Corectley done a twp outdoor finish will last 3-5 years and will never have to be striped down.

A 2 part dark oak/3 part cedartone natural twp mix will provide a brown color. TWP dark oak has a lot of solids using it will require a learning curve compaired with cedartone natural by itself. J.

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clipped on: 02.13.2010 at 05:36 pm    last updated on: 02.13.2010 at 05:36 pm

RE: ipe deck finish...yes, again (Follow-Up #9)

posted by: tropical_hardwoods on 11.30.2009 at 03:20 pm in Porches & Decks Forum

We are importers of Ipe and Garapa decking and have tesed products for the last 8 years. The absolute best way to treat Ipe decking is to clean the decking with Woodrich cleaner following the directions to a T and then allowing it to dry for several days and then applying the TWP 101 cedertone natural stain /sealer or the Woodrich wiping stain depending on your budget. The cleaner neutralizes the PH of the wood and we have been getting 1 1/2 - 2 times the life out of the stain/sealers that we carry.
Steve

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clipped on: 02.13.2010 at 04:59 pm    last updated on: 02.13.2010 at 04:59 pm

RE: Working with Ipe - Question (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: deckman22 on 01.22.2010 at 06:47 pm in Porches & Decks Forum

Folks that are not experienced working with ipe will do things like screw the ipe down like it was a cedar deck. With ipe you'll want to screw close to the edge of the board, 1/2" - 3/4" max. You may not know to glue it along with the screws, you may put in solid skirting not allowing for cross ventilation. Little things like that can cause problems with the ipe cupping especially if 1x material. Make sure you have good drainage under the deck, you don't want water sitting under an ipe deck that's low to the ground.

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clipped on: 02.04.2010 at 09:07 pm    last updated on: 02.13.2010 at 02:24 pm

RE: new Ipe deck problems (Follow-Up #15)

posted by: tsullivanjr on 01.05.2009 at 03:53 pm in Porches & Decks Forum

This summer a carpenter friend and I built a substantial Brazilian Redwood deck.
I learned allot of things and wanted to posts what I learned to this forum but have not had the time.

Regarding CABOTS ATO, there are two formulas with the same names. The 3000 series is good, the 9000 series is bad. (Example 3459 Mahogany Flame is good, 9459 Mahogany Flame is bad.) The 9000 series does not look the same, takes forever to dry, does not repel water, hides grain, .. I have run it three people who have experienced this same series 9000 problem, some with restraining there old decks (they had no problems before) or with new decks both on Mahogany and Brazilian redwood. I only stained three boards with the 9000 series and you can still tell them apart especially when it rains.

On end waxing, I discussed with Cabot's and they felt I should be able to use the ATO in place of the wax. I did and seemed to soak in well to the end cuts. Just for a precaution, I also waxed the ends a couple of hours after the ATO dried. This mitigated any end waxing color problems.

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clipped on: 02.04.2010 at 09:54 pm    last updated on: 02.04.2010 at 09:54 pm

RE: Corner storage (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: arlosmom on 12.30.2008 at 10:36 am in Kitchens Forum

It might be my cabinet that jayne described. I call it my Costco cabinet because it stores all the bulk stuff that I only need to get to occasionally. Like jayne said, I sometimes need to take out what is in front of the sliders to be able to extend them, but that's not a big deal to me. (The cabinets hadn't been painted yet in this photo...)

blind corner #2
blind corner #2 sliders in
blind corner #2 sliders out

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clipped on: 04.17.2009 at 08:08 am    last updated on: 04.17.2009 at 08:08 am

RE: Help, are these granite seams acceptable? (Follow-Up #27)

posted by: azstoneconsulting on 04.16.2009 at 03:30 pm in Kitchens Forum

OK.... so I'm NOT supposed to get in ... WITH my Turkey???

:-o ..... NOW the Light bulb just went...ON!!!! No WONDER My
Sink keeps falling!!! HA!!!

Igloo - you can come by anytime to check up on me!!!
(my wife is rolling her eyes.. thinking... All men are idiots..
and I've married THEIR KING!!!!)

Turkey's (like me and the eatin kind) aside -
here's a pic of the sink setter/undercounter
mouner - photo courtesy of my friends at Braxton Bragg -

NOTE: ANY guy that says he's a fabricator that has never heard of Braxton Bragg.....
Well...... He's like a computer dude that's never heard of this thing that Al Gore claims HE invented....
called The Internet.......

Photobucket

How it works:

The front & rear track assemblies are screwed to the left and right side of the
cabinet base - so it's secure and won't move.

The installer turns down the 10 adjustable threaded
height adjustment studs so the sink initially
will sit lower (by about 1/4" to 1/2") than it will
when it is in it's final - "fully installed" position.

The installer places the sink on the track assembly.

The sink "sits" on top of those 10 adjustable threaded studs -
the top of each "stud" has the "square" looking "foot pad"
while the bottom end has a Phillips head fitting so you
can get in there with a cordless drill or a screw driver
and turn the screws so the will all raise the sink up. The
square foot pad helps to evenly distribute the pressure of
the stud as it lifts the sink up - this helps to eliminate
denting of the stainless steel rim - and re-purchase of a new
sink by the fabricator....

The sink is set in place on the support tracks,
a bead of silicone is applied to the top rim of the sink.

The stone countertop is lowered down into position
over the sink.

The 10 adjustment studs are turned from underneath
in order to raise the sink up the final 1/4" to 1/2"
so that it sits & fits tight to the bottom of the stone.

Any excess silicone is cleaned off immediately with denatured alcohol......

I will either video tape this whole procedure and do a podcast
on this for people to watch for free on Natural Stone 101.com

In the mean time - I'm stayin AWAY from bathing with turkeys!!!!

kevin

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clipped on: 04.17.2009 at 08:04 am    last updated on: 04.17.2009 at 08:04 am

What would you have done differently -- Thread 2

posted by: fern4 on 01.29.2008 at 08:45 pm in Kitchens Forum

The last thread on this topic is now dying as it drifts to oblivion. Here's an attempt to consolidate the 150 posts:

drawers instead of pullouts (lots disagree), no skimping on labor, push back refrigerator instead of getting counterdepth, hoods wider than cooktops, run lighting plan by the lighting forum experts, more effort at design stage, more attention to countertop templating, no divided lites in glass cabinets, deeper upper cabinets, more time spent reviewing cabinet plans, slight negative reveal on sink to hide edge, no microhood, measure everything yourself (especially for appliances), honed the granite, checked out appliances for noise level before buying them, avoided granite altogether, two sinks instead of one, planned where light switches would go instead of on-the-run, measure how your cabinet space will be used, saying go-ahead-and-do-what-you-think to the contractor when you should make the decision, make sure that things won't result in appliances sticking out into the room, under cabinet lighting in strips not pucks, consider location of towels, stayed home to supervise carpenter, hired professional painter, knocked down old walls, 3-drawer cabinets instead of 4-drawers, avoided side-by-side and/or French door refrigerators (or not!), thought about location of prep work, location of other people in kitchen, built in more work stations, added a pantry, big drawer for plastic containers, custom cabinets, trusted my own taste, had taller cabinets, avoided filler pieces in lots of places, don't trust designers/contractors/subs, carefully consider cabinet hardware on your own cabinets, electric not gas over, nonsplashing faucet, consulted plumber before plans were finalized, check your cabinet drawings a million times, not getting gas stove, granite with too much or too little movement, run undercabinet lights towards front not center, stained interior of glass fronted cabinets to match outside, made more money to pay for it all, more outlets on island, wider baking drawer stack, avoided blind cupboards, avoid lowest bidders, planned better for demo, no full granite backsplash, not put a pull-out shelf over the refrigerator, more research, not checking references, keeping the peace with subs when we should have told them "no," nearly anything that I didn't decide myself but let someone else decide for me, large single bowl sink, included induction cook top and Advantium oven, used plug mold, put in an alcove over the cook top, deeper counter tops, and wood floors. Not perfect but a pretty good summary.

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clipped on: 01.30.2008 at 08:42 am    last updated on: 01.30.2008 at 08:42 am

Natural stone primer/ granite 101 by stonegirl

posted by: mary_in_nc on 11.04.2007 at 09:22 pm in Kitchens Forum

Found this through google search- apparently this was a previous thread in KF by Stonegirl. Felt it worth repeating.
///////////////////////////////////////////////

Hi folks -

This is a little article I wrote on another forum and in reply to a few questions regarding the selection of natural stone and stone fabricators.

In an industry that has no set standards, there are a lot of unscrupulous people trying to palm themselves off as fabricators. There are also a number of people with odd agendas trying to spread ill rumors about natural stone and propagate some very confusing and contradictory information. This is my small attempt at shedding a little light on the subject

On the selection of the actual stone slabs - When you go to the slab yard to choose slabs for your kitchen, there are a few things you need to take note of:

Surface finish: The finish - be it polished, honed, flamed antiqued or brushed should be even. There should be no spots that have obvious machine marks, scratches or other man made marks. You can judge by the crystal and vein pattern of the stone if the marks you see are man made or naturally occurring. It is true that not all minerals will finish evenly and if you look at an angle on a polished slab with a larger crystal pattern, you can clearly see this. Tropic Brown would be a good example here. The black spots will not polish near as shiny as the brown ones and this will be very obvious on an unresined slab, looking at an acute angle against the light. The black specks will show as duller marks. The slab will feel smooth and appear shiny if seen from above, though. This effect will not be as pronounced on a resined slab. Bottom line when judging the quality of a surface finish: Look for unnatural appearing marks. If there are any on the face of the slab, it is not desirable. They might well be on the extreme edges, but this is normal and a result of the slab manufacturing process.

Mesh backing: Some slabs have a mesh backing. This got done at the plant where the slabs were finished and is to add support to brittle materials or materials with excessive veining or fissures. A number of exotic stones will have this. This does not necessarily make the material one of inferior quality, though. Quite often these slabs will require special care in fabrication and transport, so be prepared for the fabricator to charge accordingly. If you are unsure about the slabs, ask your fabricator what his opinion of the material is.

On cracks and fissures: Yes - some slabs might have them. One could have quite the discussion on whether that line on the slab could be one or the other, so I'll try to explain it a little Fissures are naturally occurring features in stone. They will appear as little lines in the surface of the slabs (very visible in a material like Verde Peacock) and could even be of a different color than the majority of the stone (think of those crazed white lines sometimes appearing in Antique Brown). Sometimes they could be fused like in Antique Brown and other times they could be open, as is the case in the Verde Peacock example. They could often also go right through the body of the slab like in Crema Marfil, for instance. If you look at the light reflection across a fissure, you will never see a break - i.e. there will be no change in the plane on either side of a fissure. A crack on the other hand is a problem... If you look at the slab at an oblique angle in the light, you will note the reflection of the shine on the surface of the stone. A crack will appear as a definite line through the reflection and the reflection will have a different appearance on either side of the line - there will be a break in the plane. Reject slabs like this. One could still work around fissures. Cracks are a whole nother can of worms.

On resined slabs: The resin gets applied prior to the slabs being polished. Most of the resin then gets ground off in the polishing process. You should not be able to see just by looking at the surface of a slab whether it was resined or not. If you look at the rough sides of the slab, though, you will see some drippy shiny marks, almost like varnish drips. This should be the only indication that the slab is resined. There should never be a film or layer on the face of the stone. With extremely porous stones, the resining will alleviate, but not totally eliminate absorption issues and sealer could still be required. Lady's dream is an example. This material is always resined, but still absorbs liquids and requires sealer. Test the material you have selected for absorption issues regardless - it is always best to know what your stone is capable of and to be prepared for any issues that might arise. Some stones indeed does not require sealer - be they resined or not. Baltic Brown would be an example here. It will not absorb one iota of anything, but gets resined to eliminate a flaking issue.

Now for some pointers on recognizing good craftsmanship and quality fabricators:

Most stone installations will have seams. They are unavoidable in medium or large sized kitchens. One hallmark of a good fabricator is that they will keep the seams to a minimum. It seems that a good book could be written about seams, their quality and their placement and still you will have some information that will be omitted! For something as seemingly simple as joining two pieces of stone, seams have evolved into their own universe of complexity far beyond what anybody should have fair cause to expect!

A generic good quality seam should have the following characteristics:

- It should be flat. According to the MIA a minimal amount of lippage is acceptable (1/32"), but conscientious fabricators all strive for a perfectly flat and smooth joint.

- It should be narrow - as in smaller than 1/16". (I think the MIA stipulates no larger than 1/8", but that is pushing it - and only if the fabricator bevels the edges of the seam, almost similar to the edge of a stone tile. This is, thank goodness, not a standard practice any more!)

- The color on either side of the seam should match as close as possible. On regularly patterned stones like Ubatuba for example - there should be no variation. On stones with variation in colors or veins, the match should be made as close as was humanly possible.

- Vein direction should flow. The MIA suggests a single direction of vein flow, but it is acceptable IF DISCUSSED WITH THE CLIENT to change vein direction on a seam if no other option is available. This would happen in book matched slabs - you will have a "butterfly" seam in this case. In other cases the fabricator could put a miter seam in a corner and change vein direction 90 degrees. This is usually done with extremely linear veining like Bamboo Green, for example, but this is something that should be discussed with the fabricator and agreed upon by the client.

- The seam on the finished edge of the stone should NOT dip in and create a divot in the edge. When you run your fingers over the edge you should not be able to feel the location of the seam at all.

- The thickness of the slabs on either side of the seam should be equal (or feathered out so that there is no discernible difference)

- The glue in the seam should be of a color that matches the stone as close as possible. Glue joints that are too light or too dark will show up something terrible. The idea behind tinting the glue is to try an make the seam "disappear" or something relatively close to it

Seam placement: Yet another kettle of fish (or can of worms, depending on how you look at it, I guess!) Seam placement is ultimately at the discretion of the fabricator. I know it is not a really popular point of view, but that is just the way it is. There really is more to deciding where the seam would go than just the size of the slab or where the seam would look best in the kitchen.

Among the things the fabricator needs to look at when deciding on the seam placement are:

- The slab: size, color, veining, structure (fissures, strength of the material an other characteristics of the stone)

- Transport to the job site: Will the fabricated pieces fit on whatever vehicle and A-frames he has available

- Access to the job site: Is the house on stilts? (common in coastal areas) How will the installers get the pieces to where they need to go? Will the tops fit in the service elevator if the apartment is on the 10th floor? Do the installers need to turn tight corners to get to the kitchen? There could be 101 factors that will impact seam placement here alone.

- Placement and size of undermount (or other) cut-outs. Some fabricators like to put seams in undermount sinks, some don't. We, for instance will do it if absolutely necessary, and have done so with great success, but will not do so as general practice. We do like to put seams in the middle of drop-in appliances and cut-outs and this is a great choice for appearances and ease of installation.

- Location of the cabinets: Do the pieces need to go in between tall cabinets with finished sides? Do the pieces need to slide in under appliance garages or other cabinetry? How far do the upper cabinets hang over? Is there enough clearance between the vent hood and other cabinets? Again the possibilities are endless and would depend on each individual kitchen lay-out and - ultimately -

- Installability of the fabricated pieces: Will that odd angle hold up to being moved and turned around to get on the peninsula if there is no seam in it? Will the extra large sink cut-out stay intact if we hold the piece flat and at a 45 degree angle to slide it in between those two tall towers? Again a 1001 combinations of cabinetry and material choices will come into play on this question.

You can ask your fabricator to put a seam at a certain location and most likely he will oblige, but if he disagrees with you, it is not (always) out of spite or laziness. Check on your fabricator's seams by going to actual kitchens he has installed. Do not trust what you see in a showroom as sole testament to your fabricator's ability to do seams.

With modern glues and seaming methods a seam could successfully be put anywhere in an installation without compromising the strength or integrity of the stone. If a seam was done well, there would be - in theory - no "wrong" location for it. A reputable fabricator will also try to keep the number of seams in any installation to a minimum. It is not acceptable, for instance to have a seam in each corner, or at each point where the counter changes direction, like on an angled peninsula.

Long or unusually large pieces are often done if they can fit in the constraints of a slab. Slabs as a rule of thumb will average at about 110"x65". There are bigger slabs, and quite often smaller ones too. Check with the fabricator or the slab yard. They will be more than happy to tell you the different sizes of slabs they have available. Note, though, that the larger the slabs, the smaller the selection of possible colors. Slab sizes would depend in part on the capabilities of the quarry, integrity of the material or the capabilities of the machinery at the finishing plant. We have had slabs as wide as 75" and as long as 130" before, but those are monsters and not always readily available.

Rodding is another issue where a tremendous amount of mis-information and scary stories exist: The main purpose for rodding stone would be to add integrity to the material around cut-outs. This is primarily for transport and installation and serves no real purpose once the stone is secured and fully supported on the cabinets. It would also depend on the material. A fabricator would be more likely to rod Ubatuba than he would Black Galaxy, for instance. The flaky and delicate materials prone to fissures would be prime candidates for rodding. Rodding is basically when a fabricator cuts slots in the back of the stone and embeds steel or fiberglass rods with epoxy in the slots in the stone. You will not see this from the top or front of the installation. This is an "insurance policy" created by the fabricator to make sure that the stone tops make it to your cabinets all in one piece.

Edges: The more rounded an edge is, the more stable it would be. Sharp, flat edges are prone to chipping under the right (or rather wrong) circumstances. Demi or full bullnose edges would almost entirely eliminate this issue. A properly milled and polished edge will be stable and durable regardless of the profile, though. My guess at why ogee and stacked edges are not more prevalent, would be purely because of cost considerations. Edge pricing is determined by the amount of work needed to create it. The more intricate edge profiles also require an exponentially larger skill set and more time to perfect. The ogee edge is a very elegant edge and can be used to great effect, but could easily look overdone if it is used everywhere. We often advise our clients to combine edges for greater impact - i.e. eased edge on all work surfaces, and ogee on the island to emphasize the cabinetry or unusual shape.

Like I said earlier - edge profiles are largely dependent on what you like and can afford. There is no real pro or con for regular or laminated edges. They all have their place in the design world Check with your fabricator what their capabilities and pricing are. Look at actual kitchens and ask for references.

A good edge should have the following characteristics:

- Shine: The edge polish should match the top polish in depth and clarity. The edge should not be milky, dull or waxy.

- The edge should not have "waves". Eyeball along the edge. A good edge should have a mirror like reflection and be fairly flat. Waves that you can see or feel are not a good thing.

- The aris (very top of the edge) should be crisp and straight, even on a bullnose edge. Once again you can see this by eyeballing along the very top end of the edge profile. A wavy, dippy aris is poor craftsmanship.

- A good edge will have a consistent profile. It will not be larger in some spots or smaller in others.

- A good edge should also have NO tooling lines. These will be fine lighter/white lines running along the edge. This is a mark of a poor edge polish, of a CNC machine that is not set correctly and a lack of hand finishing. This is common when a company has only mechanised fabrication (i.e. CNC macines or line polishers) and no skilled hand fabricators to finish the work properly.

We have seen some terrible edges in jobs done by our competitors.

Do your research and look at actual kitchens. Talk to clients and ask them about the fabricator. Most good fabricators will not hesitate to supply the names and numbers of clients willing to provide referrals. Do your homework.

Regards,
Adriana

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clipped on: 11.04.2007 at 09:39 pm    last updated on: 11.04.2007 at 09:39 pm

RE: Marble and Granite Countertop Sealers--KR 33 (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: cat_mom on 10.23.2007 at 09:40 am in Kitchens Forum

I got it from my fabricator. We had another local fabricator install a small piece of granite elsewhere in the house (they had the one we'd wanted), and they used it, too. I know Bill V. and stonegirl have recommended some of the stone tech products, but I don't know anything about them. If you wanted to find the KR 33, call around, (especially to some of the Italian-American owned shops) and see if any of them use it/have it to sell.

There are stone polishes as well out there--I had posted a thread some months ago (before I used the KR 33 myself on the island--it had been sealed by the installers at install) about how to make the island surface more shiny, like the rest of the counters. I believe there were some recommendations posted. I do know that many of the granite polishes also act as (or are) sealers, so you'd want to be sure that they are compatible.

The only sealer I'd stay away from, is the SCI Spray-N-Seal. I use their floor cleaner (Marbalex) and counter cleaner spray (Clean Encounters), but hated the sealer. It left our travertine floor tiles hazy and filmy no matter how carefully we followed the instructions for application. We had to re-wet the tiles, and scrub the stuff off while wet, section by section. We'll stick with the KR 33 for that, too from now on.

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clipped on: 10.24.2007 at 12:10 pm    last updated on: 10.24.2007 at 12:10 pm

RE: How do I remove a soap stain on granite (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: reno_fan on 10.20.2007 at 06:55 pm in Kitchens Forum

No fear, natesgramma. I had the same thing happen to me.

Make a paste of baking soda, a little vinegar, and water. You want it about as thick as peanut butter.

Smear it over the soap spot, then cover it with plastic wrap, taping down the sides. Leave it for a day or two, then wipe clean. Depending on how much soap sunk in, you may need to repeat the process. I had to do it twice, but after I did, there was no evidence whatsoever. Mine culprit was handsoap as well.

Best of luck!

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clipped on: 10.20.2007 at 08:32 pm    last updated on: 10.20.2007 at 08:32 pm

RE: Does the stainless in your kitchen match? (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: twoyur on 10.14.2007 at 09:28 am in Appliances Forum

patches123

re: scratch removal

i was given two pads by the appliance store where I purchased most of my appliances

they are pink 3M p400 and P180

The P400 has holes through the pad and the P180 is solid

the P400 it polishes more than sands the P180 sands

as long as I go with the grain of my finish i have yet to find any scratch I could not remove

you can purchase them in the big box stores

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clipped on: 10.18.2007 at 09:46 am    last updated on: 10.18.2007 at 09:47 am

RE: Halo Recessed Lighting (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: sombreuil_mongrel on 12.30.2006 at 07:00 pm in Lighting Forum

Hi,
I want to make it clear to the OP that either the eyeball or the gimbal is going to have the bulb lens visible to people in the room. If it is pointing at you, you will not appreciate the glare. To be glare-free you must mount the bulb up in the recess of the fixture, and either use a black baffle or specular reflector (alzak) -type trims. There is a terrific thread on the Kitchens board on this topic, with before/after shots of _chiefniel_'s kitchen as he was having his white baffle trims replaces with alzaks.
Based on what I saw, I bought black alzaks for my 5" and 4" halo cans, and after they were finally fired up last week, I was absolutely thrilled with the result. The kitchen is well lit, and the source of light is undetectable- no glare.
Casey

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clipped on: 10.17.2007 at 08:32 am    last updated on: 10.17.2007 at 08:32 am

RE: Checklist For Granite Installation? (Follow-Up #23)

posted by: divastyle on 07.25.2007 at 09:56 am in Kitchens Forum

When deciding on a fabricator:
- �See the installer's work, especially the seams;
- �Talk about what they do to make the seam really tight and smooth.

Fabrication/Pre-Install
- �Post pictures for the TKO�ed of your slabs!
- �Be present for the template process.
- �Be there when they place the templates on your slabs, but if you can't be there then have a lengthy conversation about seam placement, ways to match the movement, and ways to color-match the counters that will be joined at the seam;
- �Double check the template. Make sure that the measurements are reasonable. Measure the opening for the range.
- �Be sure you test your faucet for clearances not just between each fixture, but also between the faucet and the wall behind the faucet (if there is one). You need to be sure the handle will function properly.
- �Make sure that the cabinets are totally level (not out by more than 1/8") before the counter installers come in. Saves big headaches.
- �Make sure they have the sink/faucet templates to work from.
- �Check how close they should come to a stove

Installation
- �if you have wood floors--especially if you're in the process of staining or finishing them--make sure that they don't spill or drip granite sealer on the wood floors. Apparently the sealer interferes with the stain or finish process. Possibly considered brown kraft paper to protect your floors.
- �Make sure that your appliances are protected during the installation process.
- �Make sure you have a pretty good idea of your faucet layout--where you want the holes drilled for all the fixtures and do a test mock up to make sure you have accounted for sufficient clearances between each fixture.
- �Somewhere you will have a seam by you sink because they cannot carry the small pieces after cutting out for you sink without breaking. Ask them to show you where it will be and if you are ok with it. Should be covered in the appropriately colored caulk.
- �Check the seams for evenness and smoothness.
- �Make sure that the seams are neat and clean.
- �Make sure that the seams are not obvious.
- �Make sure that there are no scratches, pits or cracks
- �Make sure that the granite has been sealed
- �Ask which sealer has been used on the granite.
- �Make sure that the sink reveal is consistent all the away around
- �Check the gap of the granite at the wall junctions.
- �Keep an eye for inconsistent overhangs from the counter edges
- �Make sure that all your edges are identical
- �Make sure that the laminate edge (if you have it) is smooth.
- �Check for chips. These can be filled.
- �Make sure the seams are butted tight.
- �If a cut-out or a seam is worked on OVER a drawer, be sure to remove the drawer and tape the glide. There have been instances where the granite dust destroyed the drawer glide.

- �Make sure that the top drawers open and close
- �Make sure the stove sits up higher than the counter
- �Make sure that you can open your dishwasher
- �Make sure that you have clearance to all of your appliances.
- �Make sure that you have the appropriate clearances for your appliances.
- �Make sure all you cabinets are still in the right place.

- �Watch when they apply the sealer, so that you know how to do it later.

Post Installation
- �Post pictures for the TKO�ed
- �Enjoy your kitchen!

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clipped on: 10.16.2007 at 07:58 am    last updated on: 10.16.2007 at 07:59 am

Is that a real granite? (and does it really matter?!)

posted by: stonegirl on 09.05.2007 at 02:16 pm in Kitchens Forum

As with so much in the natural stone industry, there is a fairly large amount of confusion regarding the actual geologic classification of most commercially available slab materials. The amount of misinformation is astounding and often quite discouraging for the average Sally and Joe Consumer trying to decide on what material would make just the best counter top for their new kitchen. With this article I will try to clarify some of the intricacies of stone classification.

I'll start with a given: Not all commercial granites are true geologic granites. I can already hear you sigh and roll your eyes. I sympathize - science was not my forte either, but take heart, I will try my best to make this entertaining!

In the commercial realm, a "granite" gets classified as a hard natural stone which can be polished and that requires more aggressive tools and abrasive than what would be used on marble. This is a pretty broad and not very scientific kind of description, which leaves some pretty big loopholes and some really wide wiggle room.

A true geologic granite gets classified as an igneous rock consisting mainly of quartz, feldspars and mica - much more concise and restrictive.

To be quite honest, real geologic granites are not very exciting pieces of rock at all (from a design perspective, I have to add). They will have quite an homogeneous grain pattern and can range in color from grays to browns, yellows or pinks. A good example of a real geologic granite would be Georgia Gray (from Elberton, GA and it has a water absorption weight of 0.2%-0.3%). True granites are not reactive to acids, but could be quite absorbent as our example illustrates. This stone would be OK for use as a counter top, but would require sealer. It has been used as cladding for buildings and for monuments and gravestones for many, many years, though.

The rest of the commercial granites can be divided into a couple of broad groups: Magmatic rocks and Metamorphic rocks.

Magmatic rocks are formed when magma cooled and crystallized. True granites (like Tropic Brown), syenites (like Ubatuba), gabbros (like Black Absolute), diorites (like Brazilian Black) and charnokites (like Atlantic Green) will fall under this umbrella.

Metamorphic rocks were formed when one kind of stone i.e. sandstone, got transformed into another kind of material i.e. gneiss. An example of such a stone would be Giallo Veneziano (a gneiss from Brazil with a water absorption weight of 0.25%-0.35%). Metaconglomerates (like Verde Marinace), Quartzites (like Almond Mauve), migmatites (like Paradiso Classico), gneisses (like Santa Cecilia) and granulites (like Verde Jewel/Tropical Green) also fall under this group.

What makes the commercial "granites" so appealing, is the fact that they are just so diverse. You have hundreds of different colors and patterns that will go beyond even your wildest imagination.

And this brings us to the second part of my question: Does it really matter if it is not a true geologic granite?

In a word: No. (and yes - you are right - I am not done yet!)

Earlier in my dissertation you might have noticed me mentioning something called the "water absorption weight" (WAW - for further reference). This is an indicator of just how absorbent a specific stone might be. The lower the number, the less absorbent the stone would be.

Following the discussions of natural stone and how they always gravitate to the question of whether a sealer would be required, this number would be a pretty good indicator of how good a stone would stand up to use in a kitchen. Without further ado, I will list a few popular stones, along with their geologic classifications and WAW's:

Black Absolute (gabbro) WAW: 0.05%-0.15%
Baltic Brown (granite) WAW: 0.15%-0.2%
Santa Cecilia (gneiss) WAW: 0.25%-0.35%
Verde Butterfly (charnokite) WAW: 0.1%-0.2%
Shivakashki (gneiss) WAW: 0.25%-0.35%
Silver Sea Green (granite) WAW: 0.15%
Marinace Green (metaconglomerate) WAW: 0.05%-0.15%
Kashmire White (granulite) WAW: 0.3%-0.5%

As you can see from the above sample, there are a number of stones that far out-perform true geologic granites in the absorption department. There are also a number of stones that absorb a tremendous amount of water (take the Kashmire White for instance). On the other side of the scale, there are stones that are too dense to benefit from the application of a sealer any way - Verde Marinace would be a great example.

Although modern sealer technology has advanced a long way in making stones less absorbent, there are a few materials (notably mostly Chinese and Indian in origin) that, even with the best sealer on the market, should not be considered for use in any high traffic environment. Again the Kashmire White would be a shining example.

Testing for absorption issues on granite samples would be as easy as dripping some water on your sample and letting it sit for a while. If it darkens the stone a little, a sealer might help. If the stone immediately becomes darker and maintains the dark spot for some while, stay away! Maintaining this would be a constant battle.

Etching is another must-do test for stones to be used in a kitchen. A lot of stones are chemically inert. Baltic Brown, Verde Butterfly, the REAL Black Absolute, Blue Eyes, the list can go on and on. Some stones on the other hand do react to acids. Blue Bahia (a sodalite-syenite) would be one example. Etches will show up as dull spots on an otherwise shiny surface. Sealers will not prevent etches, purely because etches are chemical reactions and have nothing to do with the absorption rate of the stone in question.

There are two ways to work around this issue. One is to avoid the stone that etched in testing and the other is to hone and enhance the stone. This would still give you a depth of color, but the shine would be absent and thus the etch marks - though they would still happen - would not be as prominent as they would have been on a polished surface.

To test for etching, place a wedge of lemon or lime, cut side down, on the sample overnight. Wipe the sample in the morning and hold it at an angle to the light. If there is a rough looking spot where the shine is absent, you have an etch. Etches would normally occur where calcium or calcite is present in the make-up of the stone.

Another subject of relevance in this discussion would be resining. Resining is a process where resins get impregnated into the stone slabs before they are finished. The slabs then get polished and most of the resins get polished off, leaving it only in the pits and fissures in the slabs. This serves a few purposes:
1. It can consolidate a fissured or flaky slab (Golden Beach would be an example of this - without resin, this slab would probably not have been commercially available)
2. It can reduce the WAW of a material (Santa Cecilia is a great example here. Even though it is quite an absorbent material, once it is resined, it sometimes does not require the application of a sealer even)
3. It is conducive to a superior surface finish. (Flaky stones like Verde Butterfly get resined to eliminate surface crystals from flaking off. This then provides a smooth finish to the polished slabs)
4. Another side effect of the resining process is enhanced colors. On some stones like Lady's Dream the colors could deepen with the application of the resin.

So what would be the bottom line of all this? It does not matter whether the stone you have is a real granite or not. The geologic classification has virtually no impact on the performance of the material in a kitchen. I can also say with a lot of certainty that most stone suppliers and distributors will not be able to tell a gneiss from a schist if they ever had to. It is indeed sad, but oh, so true.

So where does this leave the consumer? Well, kinda' up a creek, but hopefully I supplied a paddle here

TEST TEST and test your stone to see if it would hold up to the rigors in your kitchen. But probably the most important advice I could give you would be to choose your fabricator carefully. Make sure they have a knowledge of stone that you are comfortable with and could trust. Ask for references and look at kitchens they have done. New counter tops is a considerable investment. Do not make the mistake of thinking that stone is stone and that the guy doing it at $29 a foot will produce the same quality as someone more expensive. Conversely, do not expect the most expensive guy to be able to produce the best quality work either. A bad fabricator could make a mess out of even the best piece of stone on the planet.

Regards,
Adriana

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clipped on: 09.08.2007 at 03:15 pm    last updated on: 09.08.2007 at 03:15 pm

RE: need guidelines in placing hardware (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: napagirl on 09.07.2007 at 03:35 am in Kitchens Forum

My cabinetmaker told me that White Chapel Ltd. has a very informative web site. Check out knob and handle placement at the link below. HTH

Here is a link that might be useful: White Chapel Ltd, placement of knobs

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clipped on: 09.07.2007 at 06:36 am    last updated on: 09.07.2007 at 06:36 am

RE: Bosch DW gives off funny smell after several days of non-use. (Follow-Up #56)

posted by: deke on 08.22.2007 at 05:36 pm in Appliances Forum

jerrod6, you are everywhere I go! :-)

Just a FYI and follow up for everyone. I have not had the smelly dishwasher issue again since I ran the empty pot scrub cycle. Since then I have either rinse and held or washed dishes each day. The DW is about a month old now and boy did this thread scare me, but I really think it is more of a habit issue than a defect. My dishes are really clean and I have yet to find a spot on a glass - note one.

P.S. You have to remove the top tray and use the nozzle adapter for pot scrubber or the super high water pressure jet will blow the door open when it is running - I was warned about this by the installers and is not something I would like to test! :-)

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clipped on: 08.22.2007 at 10:07 pm    last updated on: 08.22.2007 at 10:07 pm

RE: Electrician Starting Today...All suggestions are welcome!! (Follow-Up #14)

posted by: vfish on 04.11.2007 at 06:21 pm in Building a Home Forum

Sure, I'll give it a try, however, keep in mind it is long and hopefully this will not be a problem on this site...

I wired for convenience mostly:
exterior christmas light outlets in the eaves (work on one switch);
wiring for a tv outside up in a corner of my lanai pool area;
wired for outdoor speakers/indoor theatre system;
wired for lighting two pillars at the end of my driveway;
wired for outdoor uplight landscaping lights;
outlets placed in the floor of my family room so I could have a light placed behind the sofa on my sofa table;
wired for two lights in my swimming pool;
added a transfer switch into my fuse box to add a generator safely;
wired every room for tv, internet, phone, security; wired for an irrigation only well;
wired all four corners of the home with motion sensor lighting;
wired for a chandelier over my bathtub in master bathroom;
wired for a TV/Cable in my kitchen;
wired for low voltage-xenon undercabinet lighting;
wired for above cabinet rope lighting.
I am sure I did more, but I forget~ I know I used a lot of 4 light switches/switchplates for almost all my rooms so I could add something!

Good list beachmamaproperties,
We included:
Wired for water sensors in all bathrooms, laundry rooms and kitchen
Wired for alarm system to include the fire sprinkler system
Wired for carbon monoxide sensors
Wired for weather station
Wired for outlets near toilets (Toto washlets)
Wired for alarms in window screens (so windows can be left open without breaching the security)
Wired for motorized awnings
That's all I can think of now.
I didn't do too much wiring, but:
Placed outlets above all my cabinets.
Place an outlet in my mantle
Outlet in the laundry room for iron.
Wired for Cat 5e ABus whole house audio.

We knew in advance where we were planning to hang the plasma televisions, so we wired the wall where they were hang so there wouldn't be any visible wires.
Foot lights (attached to light sensor outside)
Rope lights (cove dining rm, under toe kick in bath/kitchen)
Automatic pantry lights - turn on/off when door opens/closes
Outside outlets
And put in wiring under your driveway/sidewalks, for later landscaping
Speakers in ceiling
Speakers in eaves outside
Christmas light plug in eaves - put switch inside house
Think about all the small things you recharge, like flashlights, dustbusters, cell phones, etc.
Our house is out in the boonhickies.
We've wired one loop of exterior security lights on one of the generator's circuits that will totally illuminate the entire yard on all four sides of the house. We have a manual switch in the bedroom, another at the front door and an automatic relay that will turn the lights on if the security system is triggered.
I call them my 'boogie-man' lights. *grin*
Lets see,
Things not mentioned above.
Wired our closet light to be auto on when the door opens.
Created a niche in the wall (could also do a drawer) with a outlet that has a surge supressor plugged into it for plugging in chargers for cell phones, pda's, walkie talkies, flashlight, etc. etc. etc. Over the niche is our message center... or at least it will be when I stop working such long hours and am able to recover the message board in a nice fabric.
Put outlets on either side of the front door for Christmas decorations.
Wired the garage for a workbench complete with cable, phone and internet connection
Placed an outlet next to our dog's outdoor kennel for a heated water dish.
If I had known exactly where the cabinets would have lined up to I would have placed a outlet for my mixer under the countertop in the cabinet the mixer lift is in, that is the only one I wasn't able to do.
Interior switch to outlet placed high on each porch for Xmas lights.
Switch next to bed in Master Bedroom that can turn on/off all exterior lights (yep ... those "boogieman lights").
Outlet above kitchen cabinets to put rope lights (on a timer).
Outlet on fireplace mantle.
Dimmer over desk in kitchen/living area as I like to surf while DH is watching TV. The dimmer is to keep bright light from "interfering" with DH's shows.
I put in all the outlets and spent alot of time visualizing various furniture placements, xmas decorations, and how we live (where to plug-in the fax/computer/printer/cell phones/answering machines/digital camera/etc). I don't know what would be the standard amount of outlets for a home our size (2300sqft) but I'm pretty sure I'm over the norm!
Oh ... one special extravagance is Sillites (it's a low-voltage window candle system that is wired right into the window sill so no plug or wire shows). DH loves the look of homes with candles in the windows. He saw a simular product at a home show and loved them. We're on tight budget but on this he would not budge. So after doing some research I found Sillites and we purchased the receptacles and one candle. We will drill the holes for the receptacles and our electrician will install the low voltage wiring and a timer. We decided to put the candles in every window (not just the front windows) and so for the next 10 years DH will be getting a window candle for every B-day, holiday, and anniversary!
We've done many of the things already mentioned. Also....
220 in my closet for a tanning bed
lighting in all niches
outlets in mantles
switches for gas fireplace starters
outlets in cabs for chargeables
did double tv/phone wiring in bedrooms to allow for flexibility in furniture placement
wired for plasmas above 2 fireplaces
wired for under cab, drop-down, flat screens in kitchen and craft room
tv behind mirror in master bath
telephone in master bath toilet room--yep, real excited about that one (where's that eye-rolling smiley?--lol)
built-in ironing boards in laundry and master closet
low lighting at stairs
ceiling fans outside
floor outlets in den and study
phone in garage
There are so many cool things that can be done!
"telephone in master bath toilet room--yep, real excited about that one (where's that eye-rolling smiley?--lol)"
No eye-rolling from me though I will confess that my DH rolled his eyes when he saw I put a phone jack too in the Master Bathroom. Several years ago when my father was terminally ill we had to install additional phone jacks so that there was a phone in every room in case of an emergency. It just seemed like an easy decision while the walls are open to put a phone jack in bathroom for possible future use. And since many accidents happen in the bathroom it probably is a good idea (regardless of DH's eye-rolling).
I also double-wired for tv/phone in every bedroom figuring furniture placement may change. I put a phone jack just inside the rear porch door, in the garage, and in DH's basement workshop area.
Oops liketolearn--I obviously wasn't thinking of the safety issue. I guess the phone in the toilet's not such a bad idea. I was just feeling sorry those people my DH will choose to call during his library time!
Most of the above, except used cat-6 instead due to vastly increased bandwidth for future video streaming.
liketolearn,
I saw those sill lites and thought they were a great idea! I love the candles in the windows too, especially in the winter when the snow is covering the ground. It just makes the house look so cozy.
Great thread!
How do you use Cat-6 to connect to your phone? I've never 'terminated' cables before, but would like to run some high-bandwidth cable around the house for all of the usual uses... Does Cat-6 terminate to phone line, network, coax, etc? Any good links would be great!
Thanks,
Tim
We ran cat-5e for phone.
We ran cat-6 along side it for Internet and for network-based video in future. It terminates exactly the same way as cat-5, except you have to use cat-6 rated RJ-45 jacks and plugs.
If you terminate it without cat-6 rated jacks, you get cat-5e performance.
See link below. Cheapest I found is at NewEgg.com in 500ft rolls for ~80 bucks.
Here is a link that might be useful: WikiPedia Cat-6
....if costs were no obstacle, here's the many places
where additional electrical outlets might be a real convenience.
1. Here's the HOLIDAY ELECTRICAL PACKAGE:
Outlets under roof eaves for Christmas lights
(and place them on switches for easy on/off at the front porch).
If you have a gable-style roof, place an outlet near
the top peak so there's a place to plug-in the Christmas Star.
Outlets under inside of front windows for 'candle' lights
(and place them on switches as well).
Where are you going to put your Christmas tree?
Place an outlet in that corner controlled by a switch!
Place two outlets on either side of front entryway for Christmas lights.
Is there a fireplace in your new home?
Place an outlet on the mantel for decor items!
Is there a main staircase in your new home?
Place an outlet at front of the side base for a lighted garland up the staircase.
Over the kitchen cabinets (if they are open to the ceiling), place an outlet so you can plug-in Christmas lights to highlight decor. In this way, you don't actually see the wires...just the glow.
Is there a wrap-around porch on your new home?
Include multiple outlets around perimeter for seasonal lighting decor.
Place exterior outlets along driveway and access point on main arterial.
2. Here's the exterior LANDSCAPE ELECTRICAL PACKAGE:
Place outlets strategically in yard for electrical mower or weed eater.
Allow electrical runs for 'future' buildings or storage sheds, as well as possible motor home hook-ups.
Place outlets on every exterior wall for landscape lighting or yard work.
Don't forget to provide electrical package for cooking and barbecue area (and, place it adjacent to the gas supply line).
Include outdoor lighting for stairs, steps and walkways.
Will there be a gazebo in your landscape?
Be sure to design an electrical package for this area!
If you're including a fountain, spa, pool, wading, or hot tub...be certain to remember electrical service for pumps, lights and outlets.
Include electrical service for future shop or work area.
And, what would any garden be without accent lights and fixtures?
3. Here's the interior UTILITY ELECTRICAL PACKAGE:
Place several outlets inside walk-in closets for charging...batteries, pagers, cell phones, cordless flashlights...and those worthless, every-home-has-one, dust busters!
Place an outlet adjacent to telephone jacks for caller ID boxand your cordless telephone base.
In the kitchen, don't forget about the GFI outlet under the sinkfor the instant hot water dispenser and garbage disposal...easier to add now if you think you might want them.
In kitchen walls, place outlets for under- or in-cabinet lighting.
In the laundry room, provide electrical service for clothes iron (and, don't forget service for a built-in ironing board with a light).
Don't forget wiring and supports for ceiling fans.
Should radiant floor heat be incorporated into your new home, be sure to include electrical service for this system.
Will a jetted tub be included in your new bathroom?
Be certain to place an outlet for the pump in the correct location!
Place outlets in the hallway and entryway.
Sometimes it's hard to find a place to plug in the vacuum cleaner.
If you are putting in a security system or intercom
(or are just pre-wiring), be sure to provide
electrical service to these areas.
Closely related: Run two cat5e (or cat6)
and two (paired) shielded coax lines (RG-6 not RG-59)
to each room of the house, coming from a central wiring box.
Place outlets in garage where car will be parked for a car battery charger.
Also, include outlets at workbench height for power tools
(check amperage requirements of tools & equipment).
Install a whole-house surge suppressor in your main breaker box.
In the attic and crawl space entries, place outlets near the access hatches.
This will be useful for a light and to plug-in an extension cord!
If your new home is located in an area where power-loss frequently occurs, be certain to install a sub-panel for electrical generator, or a future alternative energy source.
Think Ahead: place conduit in the ground to accommodate future el runs.
4. Here's the LIFESTYLE ELECTRICAL PACKAGE:
During the design process, review your floor plan using your furniture layout. Think about the lifestyle you want to create within the homestyle.
During the build process, do a walk-thru as soon as possible.
Re-think your electrical layout. Measure. Measure. Measure.
Mark locations of cabinets and furniture.
Define your electrical services based lifestyle needs.
Place outlets and switches in locations that are convenient for you.
Remember: Too many switches in one area looks ugly.
Place lighting fixtures in locations that will benefit your lifestyle.
Be sure your electrical contractor reviews electrical layout with you.
The National Electrical Code determines minimum requirements, and you'll want to meet this standard while also addressing your needs.
If your ground floor is a concrete slab-on-grade,
be absolutely certain of your cabinet and furniture locations so the electrical service layout serves you best!
For furniture placed in the middle of a room,
place outlets and fixtures directly above or below exact location.
This includes the locations of chandeliers, table lamps, or reading lights.
Don't rely on anyone else to fully consider your lifestyle...prior to concrete pouring or final framing, be certain to layout your home based on electrical service required for your lifestyle and homestyle.
Place outlets on both ends of the kitchen island.
Place outlets in convenient locations at bathroom vanity,
especially if there's a 'his & hers' side (off the sink counter and out-of-site is always nice).
For a home office, fully consider computer, scanner, printer, answering machine, lamps, chargers, radios...need I say more?
For an entertainment center, include 2 quad outlets on center of that wall!
Do you need a plug-in for a laptop computer? Where?
Where your TV is located, don't forget the DVD, VCR, CD...
what else did I forget?...oh, yeah...satellite receiver?
In a bedroom, don't underestimate the number of plug-ins at your bed stand: alarm clock, cordless phone, lamps. A quad outlet may be needed.
In hallways, place small, theater-style foot lighting in the walls at knee level controlled by a switch outside each bedroom doorway (a great idea for getting up in the middle of the night, teenagers coming home late, or subtle mood lighting for a party).
Consider every room in terms of its current and future use...what is now a kid's bedroom, may become a home office or exercise room.
It's a lot cheaper and easier to place wiring now rather than later!
If you intend to include an exercise room, what are the equipment needs?
Consult with your vendor for security or audio system to determine low-volt requirements.
For a luxury home, you may want a plug-in for heated towel rack in bathroom (if you think you may want one now or in the future).
Okay...that's it...make sure to consider cost of adding outlets, switches and fixtures because it sure adds up fast
when you're using a licensed contractor.
Your electrician should do a walk thru with you
discussing any particular needs you may have.
BUT...do remember: each item beyond the standard,
code required installation, is an EXTRA.
Hey Soldier! Thanks for the post! I am going through my electrical NOW and used your list as a checklist. The FAQ by Mizzou is another great checklist.
DH thought of one more:
If you plan to have a media room and you want an overhead projector, you need an outlet in the ceiling!!
I noticed the Wikipedia entry mentioned by DallasBill also mentions cat7 cable. What if you want to upgrade your cat5 or cat6 later? Is this easy to do (maybe by attaching the new to the "old" cable and pulling it through)?
It may be cost prohibitive, but what about running electrical conduit to each room, to contain the twisted pair cables, coax, etc? Then you could easily replace or add this type of wiring. Is this a crazy idea?
--Riff.
Here is a link that might be useful: Wikipedia cat7 cable
DH had them add an outlet and ethernet above the great room soffit so he can put a wireless access point up there. It's central to the house and won't be seen.
I skimmed soldier's post, and I don't think my suggestion was mentioned.
If you do those above cabinet outlets to plug rope lights, Christmas lights, etc., into, put an on/off switch below for ease of use.
We don't plan on having a TV in the kitchen, but we wired the tall storage cabinet with power and cable for the "next" owner.
Remember that your dishwasher also needs an undersink (usually) plug, so you might want a 4 receptacle outlet -- of course, GFCI.
We had dimmers on every entry point, and when the electrician put outlets in the middle of an island, we had him move it to a less obvious, out of the way place. Be sure you tell them where YOU want it, they will put it where you DON'T want it otherwise.
Our electrician was an idiot unfortunately, and his biggest mistake (and the only one I didn't catch) was to put the switches for the island backsplash so low that the backsplash had to be modified to fit. By the way, he was the brother of a friend. Repeat after me: NEVER, NEVER, NEVER use someone related to a friend! The sweetest, most honest ladies can have brothers with severe emotional problems!
If you have a glass-fronted cabinet, you probably will want a light source in there.
One last thought about cable, etc. My husband recently converted from an away office to a home office. Because of the number of phone jacks, cable connections, and power outlets, he was able to plug in a 2nd computer, a 4 in 1 copier/printer/scanner/fax, and another BW printer.
Both he and the cable guy (for high speed net access) were impressed that the wires were all there, and just needed attaching to the cable line coming into the house. (We haven't had cable TV for the 13 years we've been here.) There is no praise higher than a professional's to me!
Luck!
Outside closet light switches.
Phone jacks in the bathrooms.
Home runs for all TV (A must for satellite) & Phone jacks. This has become the standard but some low bidders will try to skip!
Quad outlets located kitchen & bathroom counters,computer/office area,night stand area in bedroom.
Outlet for dishwasher. Makes servicing/replacement much easier than hard wired.
Wiring for window candles (www.windowcandles.com). These are pre-wired during construction and the candle base plugs right into the window sill - No need for outlets under each window and no visible cords!!! This was at the top of my electrical priority list :)
one comment about whirlpool tubs - most have an optional heater that requires it's own dedicated circuit. My builder didn't bother to mention this and I didn't know to look, so one of the first things I will be adding is a home run for the heater!
It never ceases to amaze me - all the different little odds and ends :)
I don't think that anyone mentioned theses--outlets in appliance garage in kitchen and outlets in the pantry. If you have a dustbuster, include an outlet for wherever you will keep it--in our current house that was in a kitchen cabinet, but will be in the pantry in our new house. We're using recessed lights in our finished basement, but we put in a box for a ceiling light over the area where we would put a pool table so we can add a ceiling light there in the future if we do get a pool table. Some people put an outlet inside a kitchen cabinet for recharging things so that they can keep phones, etc., out of sight while they are being recharged. I recall one person on another post who didn't like the big plug that you get with cordless telephones so she put the outlet for the phone in a pantry cabinet and then drilled a hole in the side of the cabinet and ran the cord through the hole to the adjacent counter where she kept the phone.
Wow - lots of great ideas - and we already did some in our new home. Here's a couple others:
For Christmas lights, we use strings of those big "old fashioned" bulbs (C9's) and they use up a lot of juice. We need two separate 20amp circuits for different outlets to run all our Christmas lights.
I like to have enough GFI outlets outside the house. Handy for plugging in lots of things - but mostly hedge trimmers and the like.
We also will probably put a motorized rollup hurricane shutter on our master bedroom window so are pre-wiring for that.
We put an outlet about 70" above floor in the pantry because "through the wall" from that is where we're hanging a special painting that we'll put light on. We're not sure exactly where the light needs to be so we can punch through the wall later and plug into the pantry.
We put an outlet whereever we want a phone rather than a phone jack (although we have lots of those too just because). We use a wireless phone system where all the extra handsets just plug in to power - no phone cable needed.
Question: A computer guy and the electrician were here tonight discussing wiring for my new house - the big debate is what to wire for because if you wire Cat 5,6 or 7... in five years it's likely to be obsolete.
I'm left really wondering what should I do! Any suggestions??
you got that right! So shall be this page!
Get the Max throughput wire you can afford.
Miruca,
I've heard of stuff called "smurf tube"... It's blue and in a large enough diameter, old cables can be pulled out and new ones put in. People install in sometimes even if they have no immediate plans to install cable. If your cable runs are complicated (many turns, etc) then replacing in the future will be more difficult.

RE: As far as wiring your home, what special things did you plan clip this post email this post what is this?
see most clipped and recent clippings

I'm putting Cat 5 (and maybe optical) in my home but only because everyone else is. It's useful occasionally but the trend seems to be wireless so I don't think it really matters. I'd say put in the cheapest (regy123 - just being contrary - wouldn't want a house decision to be easy now would we)
I'll make the Cat5/Cat5e/Cat6 cable question even murkier. Cat5e is adequate to run gigabit Ethernet. It appears that 10 gigabit Ethernet isn't going to be able to run on Cat6 cable--it's going to require a revised version of Cat6 that's currently being called "Cat6A", or it will also be able to run over Cat7 cable. Neither Cat6A nor Cat7 actually exist yet, so you can't install it, even if you want to. Since Ethernet technology tends to be what most high-speed local comm links are based on, it doesn't appear that there will actually be anything that's widely used that requires the current generation of Cat6 cable.
Of course, that's the situation right now, in September of 2005. There's no telling where things in will in September of 2006, let alone 2010, 2020, etc.
I think running 3/4" or 1" PVC conduit for comm wiring is probably the smartest thing to do. That way, you're pretty much ready for anything that the future throws at us.
I regret not paying much attention to exactly where the electrical outlets were going to be placed.
I wish I had thought about the placement of the china hutch with an interior light. There is an outlet to the left and right of the hutch, but that would mean exposing an extension cord.
Also make sure outlets are where the night stands are going(to avoid seeing electrical cords).
Everyone pays attention to where the TV and phone is going... Don't forget the easily over-looked simple things.
RE: cat5e, cat6, cat7 and cat balou... gigabit ethernet is irrelevant here. It's the BANDWIDTH! that counts. It's all about streaming HD video in future. The ability to transmit vast amounts of data on the pipe WITHOUT data collisions and error and packet loss. Speed is now a non-issue for the home. BANDWIDTH is it.
You will never do it with anything wireless today, tomorrow or next year that you can afford. For the small increase in cat6 over cat5e, you are covered by the vastly increased bandwidth.
That's hte bottom line.
Anyone have that "cool things" link? I'd be interested to read it and looks like it's not here anymore.
In addition to the normal wall outlets we're going with 2 floor outlets in the center of our greatroom and also in the center of our gameroom. They'll come with wood covers for when not in use. In the kitchen we'll have a 12 foot island and also a 3x4' moveable island. That island will be wired to connect with a floor outlet for use while in the kitchen and also have a side outlet connection so I can roll it into the GR for Christmas or even outside on our porch for Margarita parties :)
put outlets in the top drawers of the bathroom vanities to keep hairdryers, electric razors, etc. off the counters. Also had outlets put in the top "cubby" of each mudroom locker for charging cell phones. DH never remembers his phone cuz it's always somewhere remote from the door - charging! And my kids are only 1 and 4 right now, but I know someday they'll have their own cell phones. This way they're all off the counters and accessible on the way out the door.
These are great suggestions - does anyone have any estimates on what some of these upgrades might cost? I am in the NE, I am sure it varies but just wondering what the price range might be for some of these upgrades.
I live in Maryland, and here is what mine cost (tract home):
$135.00 - Electrical outlet
$150.00 - Switched outlet
$150.00 - GFI outlet
$215.00 - Floor outlet
$100.00 - Ceiling fan prewire
$500.00 - Extra exterior hose bib
Whole house surge protector and extra plugs everywhere there's going to be a tv, computer, etc., etc.
no more power strips!!!
Ohmygod - some of our prices are actually lower than what everyone has been posting:
Extra outlets and lights added from our original bid during our lighting walkthrough: $65 per outlet/per light.
Add dedicated circuit for mixer: $165
We added 27 outlets and lights from our original plan. I agree - no more power strips!
I would be interested in more information on outlets in drawers...
I tried searching and nothing came up for me -
A lot of great Ideas guys...
my DH is not loving my extending wishlist...
can you have a floor outlet and radient heat??

pattyt: yes - we have 2. They put a box around it so the gypcrete pours around it.
pattyt- I have a pic of this setup I pulled from Southern Living a couple years ago. I'll try to get it scanned in tomorrow and post. In the meantime, basically you put an outlet in the wall, approx where your drawer will be. Then you run the cord (no idea what type this is) thru the back of the cabinet and into the drawer, where you have another outlet receptacle. My builder told me it was really no big deal to do.
My personal opinion is that dubiously safe drawer outlets are a sign of society that is getting steadily lazier... If one can't unplug a appliance to put it away and would rather throw it in a drawer, possibly plugged in, chances are that drawer will just get messy as well and create a fire hazard. I would advise against creating such a risk.
As for ideas I have for wiring, I agree with many of the better suggestions posted here. Putting switched outlets above cabinets for lighting is a good idea. Also, I'd run three-conductor cable to fixtures where a ceiling fan might later be installed, even if one doesn't plan on it for a while. It is also good for dining rooms and foyers with large fixtures so that some of the bulbs can be on one switch and others on another.
I put 2 RG-6U and 2 Cat5e in all the rooms that mattered, and twice that in my office and the basement rec room. It may not be enough. The PC is becoming such a tool for so many things I never expected. It is a server for all my music, holding some 500 CDs, which are connected via Cat5e to my Squeezebox(www.slimdevices.com). I also use the PC for a video recorder, which connects to each TV via a MediaMVP. Each requires a Cat5e cable to get its programming. Networked printers take anopther cable. So, the conduit idea is good as things pop up you would never expect. Wireless is not reliable enough for me to cover the entire house.
We're meeting with the electrician tonight, so this is great info to have! I thought someone else might benefit from it also.
My personal opinion is that dubiously safe drawer outlets are a sign of society that is getting steadily lazier...
Actually, I have two outlets inside cabinets. Both are for charging things I'd rather not leave out while charging.
As for laziness, I did install a special outlet with a timer on it for my wife's hair straightener...never runs for more than 20 minutes regardless of whether she remembers to turn it off/unplugn.
How do you find the FAQ that is referenced? All I seem to get are plant faqs and 0 results when I search? What am I doing wrong? Thanks - GREAT thread!
The FAQ link for this forum is on the first page under the introduction. I'll give you a link to it.
Ima
Here is a link that might be useful: BAH FAQ
Ronnatalie;
I was referring to drawer outlets specifically. A timer for an outlet is not laziness in my opinion; it's more of a safety precaution.
I don't know if it is "special" but we are hiding all of our wall outlets, they will be turned sideways and placed within the baseboards (we'll have tall baseboards). Kitchen outlets will be under cabinet. I just don't like the visual clutter of seeing a bunch of outlets.
Will there be little doors over the outlet cubbyholes? Just trying to visualize...
They won't be covered, but they will be the same color as the baseboards w/wood outlet plates so they can visually disappear. I saw it in a parade of homes house and really liked the way it minimized the outlets to me. Not great at linking, but I took some pictures at the parade and the third one shows the outlets.
Here is a link that might be useful: parade photos
epjenk, it says we need a password to view the photos.
Ima
Im hiding all of the switches and dimmers away in a utility closet and using these keypads to eliminate wall clutter. There will be nothing larger than a two gang wall plate in the entire house where before there might have been as many as four or five switches in a row. And the satin biscuit color blends nicely with the paint we've selected for the main rooms.
Here is a link that might be useful: No wall clutter
I'll try again. There should be a box on there you can check for "view photos without signing in"
Here is a link that might be useful: parade photos
Just skimmed the posts, but didn't see it here. Telephone jacks by each Cable TV jack in case you want to put in Tivo or other DVR, or for some future technology. I don't have anything like this, but had the jacks put in just in case.
Todd

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clipped on: 08.12.2007 at 09:25 pm    last updated on: 08.12.2007 at 09:25 pm

RE: Bosch DW smells awful after every wash (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: jakvis on 03.28.2007 at 05:29 am in Appliances Forum

Check your drain line it is supposed to be looped up under your sink at least 20 inches above the floor before going to your drain. If it is not installed correctly it will not let the drain pump work correctly.
When I install them I usually take the drain line up to the height of the bottom of the countertop and then attach it to the anti siphon connection or garbage disposal.

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clipped on: 07.24.2007 at 06:46 pm    last updated on: 07.24.2007 at 06:46 pm

RE: Is there a difference in buying Granite from China or Brazil? (Follow-Up #14)

posted by: stonegirl on 06.21.2007 at 09:47 pm in Kitchens Forum

Hi guys!

Sorry I missed this thread *blush* I often just check the first page in the evening and some days we work out so late that I don't get around to it and things drop off the radar here pretty fast :)

Good golly - there is a bunch of questions in that post - guess I better get started:

Surface finish: The finish - be it polished, honed, flamed antiqued or brushed should be even. There should be no spots that have obvious machine marks, scratches or other man made marks. You can judge by the crystal and vein pattern of the stone if the marks you see are man made or naturally occurring. It is true that not all minerals will finish evenly and if you look at an angle on a polished slab with a larger crystal pattern, you can clearly see this. Tropic Brown would be a good example here. The black spots will not polish near as shiny as the brown ones and this will be very obvious on an unresined slab, looking at an acute angle against the light. The black specks will show as duller marks. The slab will feel smooth and appear shiny if seen from above, though. This effect will not be as pronounced on a resined slab. Bottom line when judging the quality of a surface finish: Look for unnatural appearing marks. If there are any on the face of the slab, it is not desirable. They might well be on the extreme edges, but this is normal and a result of the slab manufacturing process. For the tumbled tiles it is a similar issue - although not really as critical. The tumbled finish is a more rough and random kind of finish and actually gets imparted on the stone by agitating it in a huge container. Just check that the finish is consistent everywhere.

On resined slabs and sealing: The resin gets applied prior to the slabs being polished. Most of the resin then gets ground off in the polishing process. On extremely porous stones, the resining will alleviate, but not totally eliminate absorption issues and sealer could still be required. Lady's dream is an example. This material is always resined, but still absorbs liquids and requires sealer. Test the material you have selected for absorption issues regardless - it is always best to know what your stone is capable of and to be prepared for any issues that might arise. Some stones indeed does not require sealer - be they resined or not. Baltic Brown would be an example here. It will not absorb one iota of anything, but gets resined to eliminate a flaking issue.

Seams: It seems a good book could be written about seams, their quality and their placement and still you will have some information that will be omitted! For something as seemingly simple as joining two pieces of stone, seams have evolved into their own universe of complexity far beyond what anybody should have fair cause to expect!

A generic good quality seam should have the following characteristics:

- It should be flat. According to the MIA a minimal amount of lippage is acceptable (1/32"), but conscientious fabricators all strive for a perfectly flat and smooth joint.

- It should be narrow - as in smaller than 1/16". (I think the MIA stipulates no larger than 1/8", but that is pushing it - and only if the fabricator bevels the edges of the seam, almost similar to the edge of a stone tile. This is, thank goodness, not a standard practice any more!)

- The color on either side of the seam should match as close as possible. On regularly patterned stones like Ubatuba for example - there should be no variation. On stones with variation in colors or veins, the match should be made as close as was humanly possible.

- Vein direction should flow. The MIA suggests a single direction of vein flow, but it is acceptable IF DISCUSSED WITH THE CLIENT to change vein direction on a seam if no other option is available. This would happen in book matched slabs - you will have a "butterfly" seam in this case. In other cases the fabricator could put a miter seam in a corner and change vein direction 90 degrees. This is usually done with extremely linear veining like Bamboo Green, for example, but this is something that should be discussed with the fabricator and agreed upon by the client.

- The seam on the finished edge of the stone should NOT dip in and create a divot in the edge. When you run your fingers over the edge you should not be able to feel the location of the seam at all.

- The thickness of the slabs on either side of the seam should be equal (or feathered out so that there is no discernible difference)

- The glue in the seam should be of a color that matches the stone as close as possible. Glue joints that are too light or too dark will show up something terrible. The idea behind tinting the glue is to try an make the seam "disappear" or something relatively close to it :)

Seam placement: Yet another kettle of fish (or can of worms, depending on how you look at it, I guess!) Seam placement is ultimately at the discretion of the fabricator. I know it is not a really popular point of view on this board, but that is just the way it is. There really is more to deciding where the seam would go than just the size of the slab or where the seam would look best in the kitchen.

Among the things the fabricator needs to look at when deciding on the seam placement are:

- The slab: size, color, veining, structure (fissures, strength of the material an other characteristics of the stone)

- Transport to the job site: Will the fabricated pieces fit on whatever vehicle and A-frames he has available

- Access to the job site: Is the house on stilts? (common in coastal areas) How will the installers get the pieces to where they need to go? Will the tops fit in the service elevator if the apartment is on the 10th floor? Do the installers need to turn tight corners to get to the kitchen? There could be 101 factors that will impact seam placement here alone.

- Placement and size of undermount (or other) cut-outs. Some fabricators like to put seams in undermount sinks, some don't. We, for instance will do it if absolutely necessary, and have done so with great success, but will not do so as general practice. We do like to put seams in the middle of drop-in appliances and cut-outs and this is a great choice for appearances and ease of installation.

- Location of the cabinets: Do the pieces need to go in between tall cabinets with finished sides? Do the pieces need to slide in under appliance garages or other cabinetry? How far do the upper cabinets hang over? Is there enough clearance between the vent hood and other cabinets? Again the possibilities are endless and would depend on each individual kitchen lay-out and - ultimately -

- Installability of the fabricated pieces: Will that odd angle hold up to being moved and turned around to get on the peninsula if there is no seam in it? Will the extra large sink cut-out stay intact if we hold the piece flat and at a 45 degree angle to slide it in between those two tall towers? Again a 1001 combinations of cabinetry and material choices will come into play on this question.

You can ask your fabricator to put a seam at a certain location and most likely he will oblige, but if he disagrees with you, it is not (always) out of spite or laziness. Check on your fabricator's seams by going to actual kitchens he has installed. Do not trust what you see in a showroom as sole testament to your fabricator's ability to do seams.

With modern glues and seaming methods a seam could successfully be put anywhere in an installation without compromising the strength or integrity of the stone. If a seam was done well, there would be - in theory - no "wrong" location for it. A reputable fabricator will also try to keep the number of seams in any installation to a minimum. It is not acceptable, for instance to have a seam in each corner, or at each point where the counter changes direction, like on an angled peninsula.

Long or unusually large pieces are often done if they can fit in the constraints of a slab. Slabs as a rule of thumb will average at about 110"x65". There are bigger slabs, and quite often smaller ones too. Check with the fabricator or the slab yard. They will be more than happy to tell you the different sizes of slabs they have available. Note, though, that the larger the slabs, the smaller the selection of possible colors. Slab sizes would depend in part on the capabilities of the quarry, integrity of the material or the capabilities of the machinery at the finishing plant. We have had slabs as wide as 75" and as long as 130" before, but those are monsters and not always readily available.

Rodding: The main purpose for rodding stone would be to add integrity to the material around cut-outs. This is primarily for transport and installation and serves no real purpose once the stone is secured and fully supported on the cabinets. It would also depend on the material. A fabricator would be more likely to rod Ubatuba than he would Black Galaxy, for instance. The flaky and delicate materials prone to fissures would be prime candidates for rodding. Rodding is basically when a fabricator cuts slots in the back of the stone and embeds steel or fiberglass rods with epoxy in the slots in the stone. You will not see this from the top or front of the installation. This is an "insurance policy" created by the fabricator to make sure that the stone tops make it to your cabinets all in one piece.

Edges: The more rounded an edge is, the more stable it would be. Sharp, flat edges are prone to chipping under the right (or rather wrong) circumstances. Demi or full bullnose edges would almost entirely eliminate this issue. A properly milled and polished edge will be stable and durable regardless of the profile, though. My guess at why ogee and stacked edges are not more prevalent, would be purely because of cost considerations. Edge pricing is determined by the amount of work needed to create it. The more intricate edge profiles also require an exponentially larger skill set and more time to perfect. The ogee edge is a very elegant edge and can be used to great effect, but could easily look overdone if it is used everywhere. We often advise our clients to combine edges for greater impact - i.e. eased edge on all work surfaces, and ogee on the island to emphasize the cabinetry or unusual shape.

Like I said earlier - edge profiles are largely dependent on what you like and can afford. There is no real pro or con for regular or laminated edges. They all have their place in the design world :) Check with your fabricator what their capabilities and pricing are. Look at actual kitchens and ask for references.

A good edge should have the following characteristics:

- Shine: The edge polish should match the top polish in depth and clarity. The edge should not be milky, dull or waxy.

- The edge should not have "waves". Eyeball along the edge. A good edge should have a mirror like reflection and be fairly flat. Waves that you can see or feel are not a good thing.

- The aris (very top of the edge) should be crisp and straight, even on a bullnose edge. Once again you can see this by eyeballing along the very top end of the edge profile. A wavy, dippy aris is poor craftsmanship.

- A good edge will have a consistent profile. It will not be larger in some spots or smaller in others.

- A good edge should also have NO tooling lines. These will be fine lighter/white lines running along the edge. This is a mark of a poor edge polish, of a CNC machine that is not set correctly and a lack of hand finishing. This is common when a company has only mechanised fabrication (i.e. CNC macines or line polishers) and no skilled hand fabricators to finish the work properly.

We have seen some terrible edges in jobs done by our competitors.

Do your research and look at actual kitchens. Talk to clients and ask them about the fabricator. Most good fabricators will not hesitate to supply the names and numbers of clients willing to provide referrals. Do your homework. In an industry that has no set standards, there are a lot of unscrupulous people trying to palm themselves off as fabricators.

I'm going to have some coffee now :)

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clipped on: 07.07.2007 at 10:43 pm    last updated on: 07.07.2007 at 10:43 pm

RE: Is there a difference in buying Granite from China or Brazil? (Follow-Up #8)

posted by: stonegirl on 06.13.2007 at 09:23 pm in Kitchens Forum

Jude - thanks for the compliment. I appreciate it :)

tkml - granite is fine in a bathroom. We do loads of granite vanities and they all look great. Natural stone adds a flair to any room and the ease of care makes it a great choice for hard working counter tops.

rococo - The resin has a number of functions. First among them is to fill surface imperfections and to bind the material. The NVG in the original question would be a good example. The garnets in the stone tend to be flaky. This is a constant with any garnet inclusion in any material. The resin fills the crystals that flaked out and binds the ones with fissures. This results in a superior surface polish and a really smooth slab. Even materials like Ubatuba, Verde Peacock and Baltic Brown get resined for this specific reason.

Delicate materials like Delicatus or Gold and Silver get resined for added structural integrity. The resin penetrates the stone and binds the fissures inherent in these materials. This adds significant integrity to these stones - in some cases so much so that without resin some of these materials would not have been available to the consumers.

An added bonus of the resining process is that it makes the stones less absorbent too. In short - a well resined piece of stone is a very desirable thing.

Some pointers for knowing a good quality slab:

- Uniform surface polish. The surface should be smooth and uniformly shiny. Some stones do not attain a high gloss (i.e. Wild Sea is can not get as glossy as Black Galaxy, for instance) Natural stone also has inherent fissures and inclusions, all of which will show differently at an oblique angle in the light. These are normal - what is not normal is an uneven polish. Grind marks (often circular or linear dull streaks), stuns (lighter color "dings" or divots), scratches or hazy spots on the face of the slab are unacceptable. A limited amount of these imperfections could occur on the very extreme edges of the slabs - this is normal and part of the manufacture process.

- Fill. Some materials have (in some cases quite large) voids that will be filled. Lady's Dream, Gold & Silver (among others) and all travertines will have fill. This fill should be of uniform color, smooth and at level with the rest of the slab. Depending on the material, a moderate amount of fill is acceptable. Excessive fill is not desirable. Fill that has bubbles, dips below the surface of the slab or is otherwise of poor appearance is not acceptable either.

- Fissures. Inspect the slabs front and back if possible. Some stones will have fissures. It is to be expected. If the stone has large fissures right through the slab, it is not a good thing. In excessively fissured stones, the manufacturer would sometimes epoxy a scrim sheet (fiberglass or netting) to the back for additional support. This is OK. What is not desirable is for heavily fissured stones NOT to have the scrim sheets. This is looking for trouble. Discuss this with your fabricator and ask what the ramifications of your selection of these slabs would be. Often this would cause an upcharge for fabrication issues and a higher waste factor.

- Inclusions. Stone is a natural product. Things happened in the formation of it that caused it to have inclusions, veins and all kinds of other features. This is beyond the control of the quarry or the fabricator. Select slabs that are appealing to you. If the slabs have undesirable inclusions, and you insist on having that particular stone, make your fabricator aware of your preferences regarding those features. He in turn would tell you if he is able to work around the marks or not.

The best way to ensure that you get good quality material, though is to get a good and knowledgeable fabricator. He/she will help you choose a great material and make you aware of the strengths or weaknesses of your choices.

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clipped on: 07.07.2007 at 10:31 pm    last updated on: 07.07.2007 at 10:32 pm

RE: Please teach me about granite grading (Follow-Up #4)

posted by: alku05 on 05.13.2007 at 12:51 pm in Kitchens Forum

I recommend more rigorous stain testing than just the water test. We placed drops of oil, red wine, soy sauce, tabasco sauce and a slice of lemon on our samples. We checked how easily they wiped up after 4 hours and after 12 hours (overnight).

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clipped on: 07.01.2007 at 10:03 am    last updated on: 07.01.2007 at 10:03 am

RE: Granite templating tomorrow! Need checklist; I can't be ther (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: franki1962 on 05.02.2007 at 02:47 pm in Kitchens Forum

Here is a cut and paste from the checklist our installer had us use

Existing countertop and old plywood ( if it is necessary) has to be demolished
All cabinets have to be completely installed in level.
Corbels to support any overhang must be installed .
Plywood for 3/4" granite/marble has to be installed on top of cabinets flush with frame of cabinets and screwed ( if no special design for overhang) (plywood thickness 5/8" )
Cut out for undermount sinks have to be done and sink has to be moveable 1/4" in all 4 directions.
Undermount sink has to be even with top of plywood
All new sinks with template, all faucets, cook top , oven have to be at the house.
If it is a Farm House Sink it must be instaled even with top of cabinets and have to be moveable 1/4" in all 4 direction.
Cutout for cook top has to be done with 1/4" movable space in all 4 directions.
Top of cabinets must be cleared on from any items.
Cabinets under sink and cook top have to be empty if we do demolition.
Sink, faucets, cook top and stove have to be disconnected, if we do demolition or not.

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clipped on: 05.31.2007 at 07:11 am    last updated on: 05.31.2007 at 07:11 am

Granite templating tomorrow! Need checklist; I can't be there!!

posted by: alku05 on 05.02.2007 at 02:28 pm in Kitchens Forum

Last night when we met with our GC, he told us that he just got our templating scheduled for thursday morning. This would be good news, except that thursday mornings are the ONLY time during the week that I absolutely can NOT be there. GC called the templater this morning and there's no way he can reschedule unless we're willing to wait quite a while, which DH is not willing to do. Great, just great.

So here's the plan: DH is going to take off work and be there, and I will provide him with a detailed list of things to go over with the templater. The templater will make the templates and leave them in place when he's done. Later that afternoon, he's going to come back and meet with me to go over any aditional questions I may have, then take the templates away to make the counters.

So about that list...please help me put together a comprehensive list of items to go over with the templater. So far I have:

1. Location and number of seams
2. Overhang (1.5"?...is that the standard number?)
3. Sink reveals
4. Ask whether faucet holes drilled onsite
5. Finalize faucet locations
6. Shape and size of bump-outs by rangetop
7. Shape of island corners
8. Backsplash for window walls? (How short can we go 1.5-2"? Or will granite be gap-less enough for no backsplash at all there?)
9. Final egde choice

What am I missing?

Sorry, I am just in a state of panic over this situation. I am a type A personality with a bad case of TKO, so obviously I am having trouble letting this happen without me breathing down their necks. But I am working on it.

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clipped on: 05.31.2007 at 07:10 am    last updated on: 05.31.2007 at 07:10 am

RE: Thermador Induction installation - BEWARE! (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: jetguy on 03.20.2007 at 12:27 pm in Appliances Forum

It BARELY fit it a 36 inch cabinet. Ours isn't clamped - it just sits in the hole. It's very stable that way and frankly I can't see a reason to clamp it down.

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clipped on: 03.20.2007 at 07:47 pm    last updated on: 03.20.2007 at 07:47 pm

RE: Thermador Induction installation - BEWARE! (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: hapz on 03.20.2007 at 09:34 am in Appliances Forum

You raised an important issue. Thanks!
Checking the installation manual I came across another issue that bothers me. It seems that the space required between the cabinets is much more than I expected due to the clamps, i.e. more than 36". Can you please confirm how much space is needed between the cabinet side walls?

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clipped on: 03.20.2007 at 07:47 pm    last updated on: 03.20.2007 at 07:47 pm

Thermador Induction installation - BEWARE!

posted by: jetguy on 03.20.2007 at 01:59 am in Appliances Forum

Be aware that the depth that is listed in the installation instructions does NOT include a mandatory 'head shield' that protrudes an extra 2 inches below the bottom of the unit. We found that out the hard way after installation, and we had to convert the drawer immediately under the cooktop into a flip-out because the heat shield prevented the drawer from closing. Not a huge deal, but I'll bet most designers don't know about it.

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clipped on: 03.20.2007 at 07:46 pm    last updated on: 03.20.2007 at 07:46 pm

RE: Before we move back in, what cleaning supplies should we use? (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: pirula on 03.10.2007 at 09:21 am in Kitchens Forum

verysleepy, I've recently adopted a more "green" cleaning policy as I was tired of all the chemicals in cleaners and became really mentally sensitive to it after the remodel with all the dust and other crap in the air (why add more???).

You don't need alot of commercial cleaners to get your house clean and fresh. Some vinegar, baking soda, and some really great cleaners from manufacturers such as Seventh Generation, Mrs. Meyer's (these are aromatherpeutic and I swear I do dishes and laundry now just so I can SMELL these), Ecover, and others.

There is a great book out called "Green Clean" by a Hunter and Halpin. Lots of great advice here on what to buy or how to make your own. If you have a Whole Foods around you, they have alot of great stuff. Also, drugstore.com sells all of these, often at a discount. The new Martha Stewart "Homekeeping" book also has alot of information on cleaning your house without alot of chemicals and stuff.

Given your allergies, I would think this would benefit your sensitivity as well as your overall health and that of the environment.

Oh and DEFINITELY throw the windows open every chance you get. Not just to get all the new VOC's out from your new stuff, but forever to freshen the house and get fresh air in.

Good luck to you and congrats on your new space!

Ivette

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clipped on: 03.10.2007 at 05:17 pm    last updated on: 03.10.2007 at 05:17 pm

RE: Re-inforcing 3rd floor for a used Miele set (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: housekeeping on 12.31.2006 at 01:30 am in Laundry Room Forum

You've certainly taken remarkable pains with your installation. I would cover the cement board with something to cushion it against chips.

I have to say, though, that the problem with vibrations is not because the machines are connected to the structural members but because they *aren't* firmly enough attached to the stiffness of a house's structure. So your efforts to decouple it may be in the wrong direction.

In other words, washing machine vibrations that are transmitted to distal parts of the house are a symptom, not a cause. You may be able to contain any mis-vibration to the proximate area, but you will still have a "vibration problem", whether it's shaking your downstairs chandelier, or not.

A meticulous leveling job, and a stiffish floor firmly connected to the main structural components are what does the trick. Mieles, being true horizontal axis machines, are fairly stable all by themselves, provided they are perfectly level. Do not omit the leveling; even if your preparation contains the vibration away from other parts of the house, if the machine is vibrating in its little isolated world it will wear out early or fail if not correctly leveled and perfectly balanced, and then re-checked and adjusted occasionally, as it whirls on its merry way.

My older Mieles have lived on both cement and wood floors, and never vibrated inordinately. But I do take pains to get them set up correctly.

HTH

Molly~

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clipped on: 12.31.2006 at 10:30 am    last updated on: 12.31.2006 at 10:30 am

RE: Restoration Hardware Paint-Who makes it? Quality? (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: sue36 on 12.31.2006 at 01:06 am in Kitchens Forum

Here is the list I have. It is not complete. I got this info off the Decorating forum. I have Creamware in my house.

Restoration Hardware to Benjamin Moore Conversion

Atmosphere Blue - Gentle Gray 1626
Butter - no match yet
Butter Cream - Blossom Tint 933
Cafe Creme - Spanish White 943
Celery - Hawthorn Green 379
Creamware - Consentino Chardonnay 247
Latte - Crisp Khaki 234
Lavender - no match yet
Navy - no match yet
Shore - no match yet
Silver Birch - Healing Aloe 1562
Silver Sage - Gray Wisp 1570
Sycamore Green - Moon Shadow 1516
The Right White - Super White
Willow - Mesquite 501 (really close but not spot on)
Butter = Precious Ivory #185

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clipped on: 12.31.2006 at 04:18 am    last updated on: 12.31.2006 at 04:18 am

RE: Help finding thread on temporary kitchen (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: weed30 on 09.24.2006 at 11:28 am in Kitchens Forum

Here's info from an old thread:

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GRILL! Crockpot and microwave.

Be brutal about throwing things out. If you find things that you didn't even know you had, throw them out. This is a golden opportunity!

Box everything but label very carefully.

I found that the hot plate type burners were useless but a good electric frypan was wonderful. Use large (quart-size) pyrex measuring cups in the microwave.

Keep out a couple of nice dishes, but be prepared to use paper plates most of the time. You can buy a $60-$70 tall pantry cabinet at HD, etc, with doors on the front, a tall pantry cabinet. Invest in one, assemble it, and put everything into it.

If you can set up a utility sink in the garage or basement, etc, do so. Washing things in a bathtub gets old very fast.

Life will not be normal until everything is finished. Get over it. Life as you know it has changed. It will be better, But not today. Roll with the punches.

Keep your sense of humor.
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Temporary Kitchen will include:

4 place settings of coffee cups, glasses (including wine), small pie plates (dual purpose!), bowls and utensils; cutting board, 3 knives (pairing, chef's and serrated), 6 cup batter bowl, 4 cup batter bowl, set of dry measures, 2 microwave casserole dishes, skillet and rubber spatula, slotted spoon, tongs, spreader, vacuum sealer bags and very small assortment of mason jars with lids, scissors, mallet (for pounding out thicker cuts of meat). A non-stick electric skillet, electric kettle, microwave, crockpot, coffee bean grinder, coffee filter, coffee pot, outdoor grill and vacuum sealer.

Dishpan, soap, microfiber and paper towels, dishrags, bottle and dish brush for cleaning glasses.

Planning on using a rolling wire cart and bookshelves for pantry items, dish storage & appliances. I'm stocking up on paper towels, paper plates and plastic cups for those days I can't deal with it, and setting up an area for recycled newspapers so I can line my work space, roll up and throw away the mess.

A file with restaurant menus for take-out within 15 minutes of home, and a special file on who delivers take-out with the amount of time needed to call ahead.

Cooking: Pan toast (buttered and grilled), egg & cheese on an english muffin, Aussie chicken pot pies (Costco freezer section), cheese assortment, nuts, chicken or beef skillet dinners, bagged salad with fresh veggies added, Nutella, pesto & pasta, frozen ravioli, sandwiches (peanut butter, turkey Reubens, egg, steak, chicken, pork, cheese, veggies) stirfry, quesadillas, stews, soups. I like to freeze all-in-one dinner casseroles like broccoli, chicken, cheese & rice for easy meals, and portion controlled items made ahead, from main course to dessert. When I cook, I made double of everything to have later, so there's always something in the freezer. We learned long along how to use our outdoor grill for baking things like casseroles and pizza over indirect heat.

Packing: I'm taking pictures of every drawer, shelf and cabinet and packing the boxes with those items, using the picture as label. I'm storing less used items under tables in the basement, with the more used items on top, even though I don't expect to need anything out of those boxes while they're in the basement. (Then again, you never know...)

Dust: I don't know about this yet. All I can do is anticipate covering as much as possible with plastic and canvas dropcloths, rolling up the carpets, keep the doors closed and suck up as much as possible with the vacuum, swiffer and a really good miracle cloth!

loose-leaf binder of Remodeling Recipes labeled: Skillet, Crockpot, Grill, Microwave, 4, 5 & 6 ingredients. I've been trying them out, so I can see which ones are keepers and the easiest on clean-up and preparation. My only defense regarding all this is that I've had a year in the planning stage!
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Figure out what appliances you will have access to. Rearrange whatever parts of the house you can in order to set up the best possible temporary kitchen. We decided that we could cope without a dining room for the duration of the renovation(what good is a dining room without a kitchen?).

If you won't have access to your stove, borrow other appliances. Explore options with your contractor. (Flexible hoses for gas lines may mean you can set up a gas stove in an adjacent room).

Packing: Label things clearly. I had to pack up a lot of my pantry items, and it was helpful to be able to get things out later on-- whether it was because we used up all the ketchup, or got sick of having cinnamon, thyme and pepper as our only seasonings. If money were no object, I would have bought clear plastic storage bins just so I could see what I had where.

Extra things we bought that were helpful: dual dish-washing set-ups for both bathroom and laundry room. Dishwashing tubs not only for dish-washing, but for carrying clean dishes back to the temporary kitchen and to act as a sink (e.g., rinsing veggies) in the temporary kitchen.

Meal planning: once you know what appliances you will have access to, ask everyone "what is your favorite all-microwave meal?" or look for cookbooks made for an electric skillet or whatever your appliances are. Recognize that there are some challenges you will have forgotten about-- for us, it was not realizing just how many vegetables get washed before making a salad-- so what difference does it make that you don't have to cook them if you have to wash them?

Use your friends: We had a "Bye Bye Kitchen" party, and told everyone "Until you're invited to the 'New Kitchen' party, we'll need places to eat." Letting people know we could come over for dinner, not all evening, and that it didn't have to be a fancy meal has really helped. I've also really enjoyed the opportunity to cook dinner at friends' houses-- whole kitchens, and they clean up when I'm gone.
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tools: microwave, toaster oven, plastic tupperware steamer, grill, "dorm room" frig, paper plates (DH broke 3 wineglasses and a plate trying to wash them in the laundry room sink - just not as convenient.)

We had one small 1.5 foot width of countertop to work on and that was it, and it was far from the laundry room sink. Not a lot of prep space.

We grilled out a lot - easy stuff that didn't require a lot of prep - salmon, lamb chops, small steaks, cube steaks, etc. I bought it all at costco ahead of time and froze it in 2-person portions. I didn't want to deal with hamburger or chicken -I felt like it was too hard to clean up well enough. Tho in hindsight, I could have made up burgers ahead of time and frozen them.

In the microwave steamer, we made a lot of fresh vegies - asparagus, broccoli, etc. Stuff that didn't need peeling or a lot of prep.

There were two things that were good ideas that we didn't end up using. Rice cooker: We intended to make rice & pasta, but never did. I instead picked up a good loaf of bread on the way home, and that was our starch component when we ate at home. You can also buy plain cooked rice at Chinese take outs if you're hard up for some. The other thing we intended to use for stir frys and stuff was an electric frypan, but we never did that either.

Another lifesaver were those ready-baked chickens - costco's are big enough for at least 2 meals and they're cheap.

I clipped restaurant coupons like a fiend in the weeks leading up to our remodel and we used a lot of them. Often they had a buy one get one free dinner which could have saved us a lot of money except we often rationalized that because we were saving $10 or 15 that we could get margaritas or wine ;). That pretty much negated the savings.

Also, we ate out much more than we had planned. But it's just the two of us, we both work late, and we just didn't want to deal with the hassle when we got home - we'd look at each other and moan, and go dig through the aforementioned coupons to pick a place. Budget more for eating out than you expect!

Other odd advice: we kept out just enough dinnerware/flatware, etc for one meal. Two of everything. We knew that it would pile up if we weren't forced to wash up after each meal, just because washing up was inconvenient. And it took up less storage space which was at a premium. (Thus the switch to paper plates once a plate broke - I didn't know which box to dig through to get another one out.)

I guess I just took the path of least resistance during the whole remodel. We were mentally fried from the months of planning and neither one of us handles upheaval like that very well. I also think our situation was much different because we don't have kids. That would change the whole game.
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I had a temp kitchen set up in my library for about 3 months - ugh!
Microwave, bottled water, electric teakettle, toaster and crockpot, on top of a small table. Left no room to prep anything, other than balancing things on my lap. Try to make sure there is some working counter or table space.
We also had a grill outside.
Frige stayed where it was - just moved it around from outlet to outlet as the workers needed. It got very dirty from drywall dust, but it was too complicated to move it out to the garage. Dishwasher just sat in the middle of the living room with a sheet over it - it still got dusty.
The worst of the dirt was while the concrete in the kitchen, dining room and living room were being ground and polished, and the drywall was being done - about 4 weeks altogether. I recommend moving them to another room if you can.
Breakfast was easy - toast and tea. Lunches - sandwiches, frozed entrees, etc.
Dinners were harder - because food needed prepping.
Becasue of that we did a lot of veggies and other packaged meals in the microwave. Prewashed salads. Lots of grilled stuff - vegies that only needed a little trimming, (zucchini, peppers), or could be skewered like mushrooms. I used those Saran paper/plastic throwaway cutting sheets, so I didn't have to wash a cutting board.
But grilling got really old. We found that we really missed stove top cooking, like sauteeing. We found that we could put all sorts of stuff in an old cast iron pan and put it on the grill - mixed veggies with a little broth, sauce or butter. Kind of like sauteeing, but the pan needed washing.
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We made a whole bunch of crockpot meals in advance and froze them in freezer bags. No pre-cooking, just put in meat, veggies (sepending on the recipe) and some seasonings and liquids. Popped thme in the crockpot in the afternooon, and they were done by the time we got home from work. But the pot needed washing.
Washing and cleaning up was the worst part. We really tried to avoid cutting any meats - I was always afraid of cross contamination.
We always used paper plates, plastic forks, cups, etc, but the knives for slicing, the crockpot, and other things had to be washed.
We had only the bathroom sinks to use. Now my husband though it just fine to fill a bath sink with soapy water and wash in there, but there is no way I could handle that!!
So, we used two dishpans - one only for soapy water, and one for rinsing. It worked out OK, not ideal. Without a siahwasher and a real kitchen sink (even though a bathroom sink is probably cleaner than most kitchen sinks!) i never felt that things were clean enough! It was a fantastic day when my sink, faucet and dishwasher finally hooked up.
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#1 most important: set up where you have water -- and I don't mean a tiny bathroom sink. Laundry sink is much better -- put a plastic basin in the bottom. Ideal is if you are replacing your kitchen sink: cut it out with a few inches of counter all around, and hook it up on the laundry sink. Both times, we really practically moved into the basement, and believe it or not, it was kind of fun. Think of it like camping -- people do that for vacation!

#2 If you're replacing it, hook up your old stove/oven & cooktop in the basement -- for keeps (I wouldn't bother to hook up a separate cooktop, just the oven or range). There's your extra oven, and you won't need to sacrifice kitchen space for a second oven in the kitchen. You'll enjoy having it for the remodel, but the truth is you can manage just fine with a microwave and toaster oven for a few months. You aren't going to be serving any big holiday dinners for the whole gang!

#3 Try to avoid using paper plates & cups & plastic flatware as much as you can. You will find it is just too depressing (as well as wasteful). This is when my kidz learned how to wash dishes by hand! Also set up a real table and chairs; don't eat standing around. That will get really old fast.

#4 Make sure you have good lighting. It's for your mood as well as safety.

#5 Meals will be easier than you think. Best friend's house once a week (you'll return the favor someday when it's their turn), inexpensive restaurant once or twice a week, pizza once a week, salad once a week, sandwiches once a week. Now you only have one or two dinners to figure out -- and they can be convenience foods. Lunches and breakfasts are easy -- all you need at most are mw, toasteroven, and coffeepot. If you don't own a toasteroven, it's worth it to buy one for the duration even if you don't think you'll use it later (in which case donate it).

Keep a sense of humor and have fun! I hope that all these people who recommend alcohol and tranquilizers are just kidding. I didn't think it was so bad, and that means for 3 months each time.
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I went to Target and bought a plastic 3 drawer chest on wheels to help hold temporary kitchen odds and ends. I also bought two large dishpans so I could wash in one and rinse in the other. I found Saran disposable cutting sheets very handy in preparing things on the cutting board that I couldn't easily wash up after. I froze soups, stew, and chili ahead. We used the BBQ (in So. CA) two or three nights a week. I used my new electric fry pan with a non-stick finish to cook breakfast and make quesadilla's for lunch. I found cooking more elaborately meant more clean up which I didn't want. We ate simply, brought dinner in, ate out or took offers from friends or my parents.
Ziplock baggies were indispensable.I marinated, cooked and stored in them. They were a must have in my temporary kitchen.
We also utilized our microwave, a large water container, a toaster, and toaster oven. Washing up was the biggest pain so I tried to be disposable when ever possible.
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I thought I was being so very organized when I packed boxes and numbered them and carefully wrote what was in each box on a yellow lined pad. I had to pack my kitchen, DR, and LR and I have tons of stuff. Then the boxes went to my sister's basement in stacks.
When the kitchen was mostly done five months later and I wanted the basic stuff to start with I started looking for the list. GONE. I had no idea where I put the list. There's nothing like months of construction to addle an already confused brain. I finally found the list after I had already unpacked most of the kitchen boxes. But all my every day silverware was missing. I was beginning to imagine that it had been stolen when I finally found it in a drawer in the basement that had been blocked by boxes of wine.
Now I know that anything like that should have been on my computer since that's about the only thing I kept available at all times. When you're packing you can't imagine that you'll forget the entire process, but construction wipes out everything in your head.
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I thought long and hard about how I would set up temporary kitchen because we don't like to eat out that often. Fortunately we have an empty old master bedroom with a large master bath across the hall from it. Some of the items I have and am using are:

Hotplate (I purchased an expensive professional electric one BroilKing with cast iron top)
Small toaster oven
Microwave
Electric Wok
Gas Grill
Toaster & Coffee Pot
Large kitchen garbage can with flip up lid

I had a large work table that I covered with vinyl checked tablecloth material (stapled to top to keep it tight)
We put the microwave, hotplate & toaster oven on the patio connected to an outside plug since there were too many items on the one circuit in the bedroom. They are on the old peninsula we removed (again covered with tablecloth material)

I cut a small section of garden hose off an old useless hose and connected a sprayer to it and attached it one of the faucets in the bathroom.
I purchased a good dish drain and a dish pan.
The other sink has the old sprayer from the kitchen faucet attached to it. Makes it very convenient for doing dishes.

The refrigerator is in the old master bedroom along with a couple of cupboards we had and two of the old kitchen cabinets so everything we need is stored in them.

I kept out several plates, serving dishes, all the silverware, and cooking utensils. They are stored in these cupboards. I also have a limited, but sufficient pantry items, spices, and herbs stored in these cupboards

So far I haven't found it that inconvenient. We have only eaten out a couple of times and that was for reasons other than the temporary kitchen. We have been without our kitchen for all of August so far. Kitchen is scheduled for completion around the beginning of October if all goes according to plan and we all know that doesn't happen very often.
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I would say a couple of things to think about:
1. If you place temporary kitchen in an unusual place like an old bedroom be aware of electric circuit overload
2. Have a plan for garbage since you won't have a disposal
3. Water source is very important for doing dishes, especially pots and pans
4. Enough prep workspace (I am using an old 8' worktable) as well as bathroom counter since it is very long double sink variety

Think that the time of remodel makes a difference--we purposely *attempted* to complete the remodel during the summer -- to allow for greater cooking options (i.e. grilling)--we moved two of the dismantled cabinets into the dining room as a temp set up--(including drawer containing silverware)--coffee machine was essential as was a microwave (bought one as the former built in was kaput)--electric skillet very useful--and an electric burner--that was really sufficent--used paper plates but needed *real* mugs to drink coffee/tea--as to dinners: basically alot of stir fry (we lost alot of weight during the remodel--a "hidden" bonus)--fish fillet, turkey fillets--basically anything that would fit in the skillet--very easy to clean up (altho we didn't have a sink for 3 months
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Keep a plastic drop cloth, mark one side with tape that says "UP", drape over the food prep area every day.

Enclose stereo and other electronic equipment in plastic. Sounds drastic, but ignore at your peril.

Close the washing machine. You wouldn't believe the mess the electrician made drilling holes in the floor joists for wires to run around the kitchen above. Did he think to close the machine before working over its head? No.

This was probably the best thing we did to make our remodel somewhat livable.

We bought a $25 plastic utility tub from Home Depot and put it in a shower stall. (Our utlity tub was low, so we put it up on wooden blocks. We also temporarily removed the door to the shower stall.)

To get a sprayer that we could use to wash dishes, we in-stalled extra plastic tubing to the showerhead. We also bought a cheap kitchen strainer to plug into the laundry tub drain.

At first, we simply let the wastewater run through the utility tub drain and out to the bottom of the shower stall (and then into the shower stall drain). We found the occasional splash on our feet bothersome, however, so we installed about 8 inches of plastic pipe onto the bottom of the tub drain. Note-- the pipe STILL didn't connect to the shower drain, but the water hit the shower stall floor at a lower level and it eliminated the slash problem.)

To have a place to put the washed dishes and pots, I bought a cheap wire shelf and installed it in the stall (high up, where there was sheet rock). I put "s" hooks and plant hangers on the bottom of the shelf and hooked wet pots and pans to the bottom of the shelf. This let the pots and pans dry in the stall. Bowls went on the shelf to dry. Plates and silverware went in a conventional dish rack on the bath's counter.

I won't say this was luxury, but it gave us a big plastic tub to wash pots and stuff for eight months. . .
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Microwave
Rice cooker
Gas or electric camp stove
George Foreman Grill
Electric Skillet
Crockpot
Toaster oven

While you still have a kitchen, precook, portion and freeze items like chick breasts, roasted meats, sauces, soups, chili, taco meat etc. For storing I used quart sized plastic bags �" they are cheap, stack easily and I labeled with a permanent marker.

Utility sink or 2 tub system �" 2 rubbermaid tubs, one with soapy water to wash in, then rinse in the sink, then put clean dishes in the 2nd tub for transport back to wherever you will dry them.

Consider china �" we ate lunch on paper, but for dinner we used china and silverware. Only kept a few place settings out but it was nice to eat like “normal people” !

Bagged salads are a godsend �" a little pricey maybe but so nice to have ready made fresh salad.

Keep the utensil, silver and junk drawers intact �" when we did the demo, I just pulled those drawers out with all their contents and moved them to the basement. Made it SO EASY to find anything I needed since it was in it’s usual drawer. I did cover them with plastic sheets to keep the dust out.

Detailed labels on packed items

Keep a few cabinets to use for storage

Set up folding tables �" lightweight plastic topped ones are cheap at Sam’s or Costco. We used 2 of them for all our equipment and food items.

Arrange with a friend or neighbor to let you have a cooking marathon one day, package and freeze

If you don’t have some of the cooking equipment, check out garage sales….often you’ll find crock pots, grills, etc. very cheap.

Have a small fire extinguisher in your temp kitchen! Since you are not in a normal setup, the chance of fire is greater.

Make sure to wipe all the food particles off dirty plates and out of pots into a trash can. You don’t want to clog up your bathroom drains!

**wrap all electronics in plastic** The dust will get inside and ruin them. When you want to use them, unwrap of course, but then re-wrap. I just used saran wrap over all the vents.
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clipped on: 11.26.2006 at 09:24 pm    last updated on: 11.26.2006 at 09:24 pm