I finally found a great rose that thrives in my light shade garden (Zephrine D.), and now I need a structure for it to climb on. Now it's just floundering happily on the ground, but it needs a support for it to be shown to its best.

Would a 4X4 PT 12-foot post be adequate support or would additional footholds need to be added? Does anyone have any details to share?

TIA!!

--There is ample scientific evidence that getting extra calcium into rosebuds reduces botrytis flower blight in cut roses by 2/3 to 4/5 and increases vase life by 1/3. Only greenhouse hybrid teas were studied, but the findings should have some pertinence for gardeners.

--Botrytis causes balling and rotting of flowers, red-spotting and brown rotten spots on petals. It also causes black cankers and dieback of green canes and gray mold on cuttings. One study found that extra calcium as a spray reduced botrytis stem lesions on tomato. Calcium has also been shown to control several other fungal diseases, especially on fruit.

--Calcium strengthens resistance to fungal attack by strengthening cell walls. It slows the aging of flowers and reduces production of ethylene gas. In one study, the high pH of calcium sprays was thought to reduce germination of botrytis as well.

--In various studies, extra calcium (beyond normal nutrition) was successfully applied in three different ways: through vase water solutions, by spraying buds before harvest, and by feeding through the roots. However, in fertigation experiments, little extra calcium reached the flowers when normal levels of potassium and magnesium were in the nutrient solution. This finding suggests that applying calcium to the garden soil wouldn't accomplish the full benefit.

--Calcium is not very mobile in plants and would not be translocated much if any from leaves (which would be a "downward" movement from leaf to stem), so buds and their stems need to be treated directly or from the roots.

--Various calcium salts were effective in the experiments, including calcium sulfate, calcium nitrate, and calcium chloride.

--Calcium sulfate--
I have been experimenting with garden gypsum, which is impure calcium sulfate dihydrate. It is slow to dissolve and will not form a strong solution. However, there is a convenient way to get a solution. Put 1 tb. gypsum in 1 gallon of water (for example, a clean water jug) and let stand for a week at room temperature. This should produce a solution suitable for spraying (10 mM to 25 mM). Pour off the solution, leaving the sediment. It's a good idea to measure the sediment at least once to see how much is dissolving, which will vary according to the purity of the gypsum and the fineness of particles. I recovered 1 tsp of sediment after a week, so 2/3 of the gypsum dissolved. If you get more than 1 tsp sediment, start with 4 tsp/gal next time so that at least 2 tsp dissolve in a week. The pH of my solution, without the spreader, is neutral.

I have sprayed this solution three times on some stems with no mechanical problems or damage to petals or leaves. Once I combined it with sulfur fungicide. A surfactant (spreader) is needed. I used one tsp/gal of insecticidal soap or dish soap. The scientific studies used a non-ionic surfactant, Tween 20 (polysorbate 20).

One could spray the whole garden or just spritz buds and flowers with their stems, especially those intended for cutting or exhibition.

For vase solution, dilute the spray solution with 3 parts water.

We haven't had much botrytis weather since I took this up. I have been comparing recently-sprayed with unsprayed-for-17-days buds of the same susceptible varieties. I wet them one evening before a cool night, 5 days ago. Although there is no severe botrytis on the control group, most flowers have minor symptoms. The recently-sprayed flowers are almost entirely clean. These stems were sprayed 3 times so far at weekly intervals, but there is probably little benefit from the older sprayings. Sprayed flowers seem to last longer as cut flowers.

--Calcium chloride--
This is available as ice melting and dust control products. Agricultural grade calcium chloride would also be sold in farm stores in areas where apples and other fruits are grown. Calcium chloride has more calcium than the other forms. Although it is more phytotoxic, it is commonly used in agriculture because it dissolves easily.

I haven't tried spraying calcium chloride, but I have used an impure form sold as ice melter in vase solutions. It seems to extend vase life.

Vase solution: 1/8 teaspoon/quart. Do not combine with bleach.

Spray: I would try 1 or 1-1/2 tsp/gallon, with a spreader. Solutions of 3-4 tsp/gal are used on apples, but are said to be phytotoxic to apple foliage above 81 F. Calcium chloride is said to be compatible with fungicides normally used on apple.

--Calcium nitrate--
Commonly available as fertilizer, it dissolves readily with a small amount of sediment. A fully soluble or greenhouse grade is also produced, and this could be used if there are any mechanical problems with the fertilizer. I have not experimented with it.

Vase solution: probably 1/4 tsp/quart.

Spray solution: probably 2 tsp/gallon, with spreader, dissolved separately before adding to the tank without the sediment.

I've already tried to put a reply on my old thread... but this apparently does not work :o(, the updated thread does not shows on the main page in the discussion Forum.

"...Hi guys, :o)
it's time to update this thread!
The work is still in progress, a few Roses are still waiting to be planted, and some architectural detail need to be completed, but in a few weeks all should be done!

Here's some pictures to share with you the work in progress :o)

I've started by the end of April, planting the very first roses, even if nothing of the hardscaping work was done :oP
There where still the giant cardoons that I was going to uproot by the end of June. (The blooming rose to the right is the Wichurana Rambler 'Paul Noel')

I keep on planting all the summer long, step by step, working very early in the morning (it was SO hot!!), and by the end of August nearly all the Roses have been in place - A bad picture prom the North side of the (shapeless) walk

By the end of September, with a more pleasant, fresh air and a couple of showers, we have started with the path, steps and a few other architectural details...

A picture with my father in the background, to better show proportions. The path seems to be larger than necessary, but this is to allow the roses and perennials to spread out in the path.

By October, two big Moroccan jars have been placed making a striking focal point at each end,
The North side (I've planted a Rosemary hedge behind it to hide the back structures and to make a "firm" background)

And the South side...

In November, some Roses where in flower ('Gloire de Rosomanes' and 'Souvenir de la Malmaison' in the foreground, with green flowered Chrysanthemums (...how many weeds to pull out...!)

The last picture I've take, a few days ago. Note the chipped leaves of the Olive Tree to cover the path, and the steps leading to the small vegetable garden.

It looks so bare now...I'm waiting for Spring to come!!

Ciao! :o)
Maurizio

Here is a link that might be useful: I'm dreaming of a 'coup d'état' in my garden... a Rose walk!

Do you think this is a noisette or have any other thoughts? Thanks for any help.

Gean

Is it possible to do a soil test yourself - how?

Also - once you have a soil test, is there a forumla of what amendments you should have and in what quantities? Do you just amend the planting hole?

Thank you!

Here is a link that might be useful: old thread

The organics digest down into their salt components, which is the only form that can absorb into the plant. Miracid, like all other inorganic fertilizers, already IS the salt form. As long as you have everything watered well so there is sufficient water in the plants for the salt - water ion exchange to take place without removing too much water from an already stressed plant (what we call "burning" the plant), adding a dose or two of Miracid won't hurt a thing and can actually help quite a bit.

Ironite is formulated for our southwestern alkaline soils and water and does a great job. Keep it off your clothes, concrete and house as it WILL permanently stain them with rust. Chelated iron is useful, but easier to burn things with unless you follow the directions very closely.

Ironite also has a low dose of nitrogen in it, something like 7% unless they've changed it since I last purchased it (quite some time ago!), so it might be the most "cure-all" of them for you to use. I honestly can't think of anything organic that will give you fast results.

I personally, combine organic and inorganic fertilizers so I feed the plants and bacteria NOW and provide goodies for the bacteria to begin working on and conditioning the soil with. I use Grow Power Plus, with humic acid and all purpose organic so the total isn't really heavy in any one nutrient. It makes a HUGE difference! Grow Power Plus is a 5-3-1 formula. The all purpose organic is 5-5-5 so eventually, the formulation is around 10-8-6, and it lasts a long time. The bacteria begin working right away without robbing nitrogen from the plants and continue feeding as they digest the organics long after the Grow Power Plus is used up. It works quite well in my heavily alkaline water and soil and the heat we have here in the San Fernando and Santa Clarita Valleys.

If you like the slate-gray-purple of Reine, also take a look at Blue for You. Very nice foliage, very good fragrance and some AMAZING colors! Tom's purples which have done best for me in my own and in clients' gardens are Midnight Blue and Ebb Tide. ET can be a little slow to get going but once it does, it is gorgeous! Kim
Good luck! Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Blue for You

Carol

Once potted up, assuming it isn't the rainy season, I definitely fertilize them! I'm not talking about using 45-0-0 lawn fertilizer or Miracle Grow at labeled rates. At this time of year, there is a direct relationship between shoot growth and root absorption of nutrients. The two are inter-connected and inter-related. Therefore I fertilize to make nutrients available for root uptake in response to the demands of top-growth (and vice versa). There is no way to "direct" a plant to grow roots. Restricting nutrient uptake by the roots will inevitably restrict top growth. Restricting top growth will also restrict root growth. A host of scientific data over the past 25 years supports these facts.

Timing of the spring application depends on the weather and on growth. Once the majority of roses in the garden are showing a couple of inches of new growth, I fertilize. We've had temps down to the low 30's for the past two weeks, but the days are longer, the sun the stronger, and the roses know it. They are all steadily leafing out. Sometimes roses in the ground will show chlorosis at this time of year while they are leafing out. It's a problem of the nitrogen in the soil not being available to the roots because the soil is still very cold. But it will warm very soon, and when it does, the nitrogen cycle will be primed.

Whether you go organic or chemical is your choice. Let me be clear: it is entirely possible to pollute the groundwater with organic fertilizers and manure. Anything we apply must be used intelligently. Those of us who garden in areas of low rainfall can fertilizing wisely in ways that will not lead to an algae bloom off the coast. In my garden, roses in pots of all sizes receive a complete fertilizer. I used the more expensive coated fertilizers for several years, but I'm no longer a fan because I don't trust the release rates. Now I only use it in pots when I pot up bareroots in the winter. Most coated ferts require soil temperatures of 70℉ to start releasing nitrogen, so they cannot burn bareroots in the winter or leach out nitrogen.

So I give my potted roses an early season water soluble dose. For the sake of convenience with too many roses in pots, I use a big box store house brand of granular that is about 12-4-8 at the rate of a teaspoon to a 1 gallon pot, with a pinch of calcium nitrate in each pot. That balances amonium and nitrate nitrogen. Using pre-dissolved extra dilute fish emulsion or extra weak Miracle Grow is excellent but time-consuming if you have a lot of roses. We will have very little rainfall from now until November. The ferts will remain in the soil and will only be leached if I over-water.

I fertilize small roses regularly during the first year. IMO withholding nitrogen fertilizer from young plants is unsound horticulture. Manures and organics are fertilizers. Think about this: do you want to buy a 3 gallon potted rose from a nursery that hasn't fertilized that rose for a year?

In the late summer, with shortening days, there is much more root growth than top growth. From mid-August on, roses propagated in bands will outgrow pots in 3 to 5 weeks but with little top growth. This is the time to be stingy with nitrogen fertilizer, as the organics in a good potting soil are probably more than sufficient. I use very dilute liquid ferts after the plant is settled into the pot.

Just one more gardener's experience in one more climate.

I will illustrate how different pruning and training of these roses makes them perform better and how you can choose to grow them:

Loise Odier:

With hard pruning LO can be grown as 3-4 feet tall bush (Grown as 5-6 feet tall bush LO usually begins to need some support like a rose-stake). I cut the basals to 2-3 feet after they have flowered. Those canes will make new laterals (2-3 feet and flower later in the fall). In the spring I prune these laterals to 2-6 inches so I get a rounded shape to the bush.

Louise Odier bush 3. season spring flush:

Louise Odier bush 3. season fall flush (Notice I pruned the bush hard after the spring flush and that the rose is blooming on the new laterals, and have shot some long basals that I will prune to 2-3 feet next spring)

The hard pruning reduces the size of the bush to the size and shape of the bush I want. I also get more laterals and flowers. Also it does not become leggy and ugly ... In 5 years it will become an awesome rosebush! Avoid pruning all the canes to the same length ; the bush will look like a "broom-stick". Pruning the canes in length from 1-3 feet will make the bush produce roses from top to bottom and not become a leggy and unproductive ...a jolly green giant. those who grow this rose knows it sometimes throws long 6-8 feet long canes ... If I see one of those I prune it to about 2-3 feet in august not allowing it to flower. It will produce about 3 new long laterals in the fall ...these will be pruned in the spring and bloom.

But those long canes also means Louise Odier can be grown as a low climber or pillar rose (Against fences or walls in colder zones 6 and lower or even on arches in warmer zones 6 and higher).

Instead of pruning the long basals I train them by bending and twisting them in -S-shapes to a wall support. The bending horizontal parts will shoot many flowering laterals! In the Spring I prune most of these to about 3 bud-eyes length. :

Louise Odier as a low climber against a wall in the spring (So you can see how I trained the canes):

Same rose early summer ( After flowering I prune back the laterals to 5 bud-eyes, that will shoot new laterals in the fall and bloom. Some of the laterals will be 3-4 feet I bend these in S-shaped and tie them to the support or some of the older canes to build up a dense framework):

Louise Odier could also be trained in a fan shape along a fence, by training the long basals horizontally. A rose that can be adapted to many different spaces, by pruning and training it differently.

Gertrude Jekyll ...:SIGH: ... people either hate it or love it. I understand why!! No other rose can become lanky/leggy and ugly if not pruned hard or trained correctly!

Grown as a bush I would not allow it to grow taller than 4-5 feet! It will become leggy and ugly and not produce as many flowers. Also: If not pruned hard after the impressive spring flush, repeat will be very poor!. In my experience it takes about 3 seasons before the rose really begin repeating reliably. Many impatient rose growers (Yes they do exist) have given up on the rose before that!

I have a line of GJs along the path to one of my doors (3. season spring flush) (The fragrance is unbelievable!!!!!!!):

If people want to grow the rose as a bush and grow it well, hard pruning is very important ...both in the spring and after the first flush! If I want to grow it as a bush I prune the canes to 1-3 feet and the laterals to 1-3 bud-eyes in the spring. After the first flush I prune it hard again!
Some of the new basals will flower and I prune these hard too after they have flowered! If a 5-6 foot basal was pruned to 2-3 feet ...trust me the new laterals will have reached 5 feet before fall! This makes GJ a very awkward grower! So if you want to grow it well as a bush and you want it to repeat
hard pruning is essential! (same thing with Comte De Chambord/Mme Boll one of the parents to GJ. By growing it well I mean the amount of flowers produces ... A well grown specimen is sight for sore eyes ... well-grown meaning correctly pruned or trained! How often have you not seen leggy ugly GJs? With correct pruning a 4+ season old GJ is an amazing rose! Correctly pruned the amount of flowers is stunning:

GJ as a bush (Scan from DA handbook of roses):

The long basals and laterals produced also makes growing it shaped as fan, by training the long basals and laterals horizontally a very good option!:

GJ trained fan shaped along a fence:(Scan from DA handbook of roses):

I remember seeing Linda/Erasmus growing her old (Sadly virused) GJ by training all the canes horizontally with remarkably good results!

GJ Jekyll can also be grown as a pillar rose or supported by cylindrical or various other supports, even on arches in zones 6 and higher. The secret is good training: bend or train as many as the basals and long laterals as horizontally as possible. Twirl and twist the flexible (and very, very thorny canes!!!) and secure them by tying the canes to the support or older canes. Grown as low climbers Gjs can be extraordinary beautiful and productive! :

GJ as low climber (Scan from DA handbook of roses):

Just allowing them to grow upright, not allowing the time needed to produce the framework of canes that produces flowers, will only give ugly results.

So if more people had the patience and just knew how to prune and train these roses correctly, I bet they would be more valued for what they can become. I love these roses!

Kay

1. Should I make them 8' tall or shorter?

2. What color should I paint them?

3. Recommendation for Clematis ( name, color, size,) I should grow on these obelisks?

Thank you for any advice.
FJ