Clippings by funcolors

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RE: Have I made a terrible mistake?! (Follow-Up #15)

posted by: susanilz5 on 01.03.2012 at 09:52 pm in Kitchens Forum

I think your kitchen cabinets will be beautiful. Once everythings back in place it will all come together. My advice would be to check your wall paint color choice. It looks like Taupe on my monitor, and taupe and yellow don't blend well. Your better off going more grey with yellow. Here is a copy of a post from an earlier post that may help.

RE: Taupe 'hates'...old thread (Follow-Up #1)
posted by: yogacat on 06.04.2006 at 01:14 am in Home Decorating Forum

Taupe Loves
- Pure white paint
- Dark stained wood
- Purple undertoned natural linens
- Stones that contain grey or blue
- Metals such as silver, chrome and stainless steel
- The companionship of grey or brown
- Dramatic accents of green, purple or red
- Clear glass
Taupe Hates
- Anything that contains yellow, such as buttery paint
- Golden woods, such as oak
- Yellow-hued linens
- Tan leathers
- Stones that contain beige
- Accessories that hint at yellow, such as dark cream porcelain



clipped on: 03.16.2014 at 11:25 pm    last updated on: 03.16.2014 at 11:25 pm

RE: color-taupe (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: hamptonmeadow on 10.21.2006 at 01:42 am in Paint Forum

Taupe Loves
- Pure white paint
- Dark stained wood
- Purple undertoned natural linens
- Stones that contain grey or blue
- Metals such as silver, chrome and stainless steel
- The companionship of grey or brown
- Dramatic accents of green, purple or red
- Clear glass
Taupe Hates
- Anything that contains yellow, such as buttery paint
- Golden woods, such as oak
- Yellow-hued linens
- Tan leathers
- Stones that contain beige
- Accessories that hint at yellow, such as dark cream porcelain


clipped on: 03.16.2014 at 11:20 pm    last updated on: 03.16.2014 at 11:20 pm

RE: Question for Paint Color Experts (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: funcolors on 03.15.2014 at 02:47 pm in Home Decorating & Design Forum

Can not correlate RGB values to paint colors as outlined above.

RGB applies exclusively to the additive (emitted light) color space. RGB are the three channels of colored light that mix together to create a bunch of different colors. Additive color is emitted light beamed to your eyeballs. i.e. A television, a computer monitor.

Paint colors are the subtractive color space. Subtractive color is reflected light that bounces off an object and then to your eyeballs. i.e. A red ball, or paint color on a wall.

There are mathematical formulas to toggle between color spaces. And you toggle for different, very specific reasons. Here's a link to chart of said formulas:

But the bottom line is RGB does not apply in any way whatsoever to paint colors because, again, you're talking additive vs. subtractive. Additive is emitted, subtractive is reflected. Essentially apples and oranges.

Paint companies started providing RGB and HEX values in the last two or three years in order to help people communicate about their colors as accurately as possible utilizing a wide variety of devices like computers, tablets, and smartphones. Communicating *about* colors using a variety of devices is not the same as physically choosing, using, and applying paint colors to the 3 dimensional built environment.

What you're reaching for is a formal color order system like Munsell or ACC, Acoat Color Codification System or NCS, Natural Color System. These systems provide a notation for each color.

Do not confuse a value like RGB or HEX with a notation from a formal color order system.

A majority of American paint color collections are based on the Munsell Color Order System but they DO NOT provide the notation. Examples are Sherwin Williams and Pratt and Lambert. Some DO provide the notation an example would be California Paints and Dunn Edwards and you can find the full Munsell notation in the fandeck index.

ICI/Dulux also known as Glidden from the Home Depot utilizes the ACC system. Here again you can find the full ACC notation in the fandeck index.

Did I mention do not confuse a value like RGB or HEX with a notation from a formal color order system?

If you have a NOTATION you can indeed use it as describe above. The notation will guide you on factors of hue/chroma/value and very often LRV Light Reflectance Value too. In other words, guide you to more red or less red, for example. Color experts and artists know how to use these 100+ year-old color systems in exactly this way.

In order to use these formal color order systems, you have to correctly understand the proper structure of color. Undertones are only relevant if the medium is spread at different rates. Many people have the whole undertone thing completely, totally and tragically WRONG.

If the medium (like paint) is not spread at different rates, then undertone is simply a subjective figure of speech. Undertone is NOT a measurable, plottable nor fully-controllable aspect or attribute of color. That is the reason these 100+ year old color systems do not include undertones.

When you are using color notations from a formal color order system and you are talking about more or less red, more or less yellow, more or less orange you are talking about OVERTONES - not undertones. Overtone speaks to degrees of hue bias. That's why the color systems each have their own custom color wheel. Or, if you've ever seen a random color wheel integrated with a clock or actual degrees it's about plotting OVERTONES.

The Munsell wheel below demonstrates said degrees of overtones according to its system of human perceptually based color order.

Hope the info helps.


clipped on: 03.15.2014 at 03:48 pm    last updated on: 03.15.2014 at 03:49 pm

RE: OT: Color and Moods, Depression (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: funcolors on 07.23.2010 at 07:51 pm in Home Decorating Forum

"Colors are often used as metaphors for moods, but no one had systematically researched color associations."

I would argue that statement. Color's timeline starting in the 1930's is heavily dotted with clinical psychologists, researchers and color experts who have indeed systematically reaserched - and documented - color associations. Louis Cheskin, Heinrich Frieling (certain works later modified by Inge and Gerd Schilling), Faber Birren, Rudolph Mahnke, Frank Mahnke, and I've probably left a few off the list...

Not to mention (for corn's sake!) Max Lscher. From Wiki: "He is known for inventing the Lscher color test, a tool for measuring the person's psychophysical state based on his or her color preferences. Besides research, teaching and practicing psychotherapy in Basel, Lscher worked for international companies, amongst other things giving color advice.

His book "The Lscher Test" has been translated into more than 30 languages." So language is no excuse for not being aware of this color research.

I mean doesn't Max's "psychophysical state" mean the same as their "metaphors for moods". From Luscher - "Therefore the patients choice of color shows the state of their psychosomatic and emotional status and how they feel about themselves."

The 'no one has systematically researched color association' business made it hard for me to take that new color wheel thing very seriously.

However, I did go on to take a look at it. I do agree with the information and their associations - for the most part. Not because this is new and innovative information -- it's far from it -- I do appreciate how they have interpreted color associations and how they have managed to communicate that point of view via graphics and words.

Their experiments, graphic developed, and intended application in the medical field is very interesting. I feel how they want to apply it is totally plausible.


clipped on: 07.23.2010 at 08:12 pm    last updated on: 07.23.2010 at 08:12 pm

RE: Bye-Bye Aura...Helllllo Behr! (Follow-Up #9)

posted by: lucille on 09.12.2009 at 08:48 am in Home Decorating Forum

To me, first hand experience from people I have seen on the forums for a while means a lot. Along with this group are people like funcolors, who in my experience are good at honestly assessing paint qualities and techniques. There are too many ulterior motives for me to give a lot of weight or credence to posts by brand new posters, or by those who might have financial interests in choices that consumers might make.


Oh man, like is that the nicest compliment a person could ever get or what? I teared up a little. :)

Thank you, lucille.

clipped on: 09.13.2009 at 06:34 am    last updated on: 09.13.2009 at 06:35 am

RE: !!!!color charts are back!!!! (Follow-Up #28)

posted by: funcolors on 09.11.2009 at 06:23 pm in Home Decorating Forum

A big welcome to all of you who enjoy the site. I'm thrilled to have stumbled upon it and made "most" of you very happy. ;^)

Presumably you perceive that I'm "un" happy in some way shape or form. It's not about "happy" because "happy" has nothing to do with it.

It has to do with knowledge.

How many posts currently on page one have to do with paint and/or color right now?

I could have scrolled on by and just left this thread with danglers of information. But I didn't and I can tell you why.

Color is not getting simpler. It's more complicated and complex. Online resources like Colorcharts, EasyRGB, and even hand-held resources like apps for iPhones are now to a point where they are commonly known and accessible to most everyone.

Up to this point, it's not like color knowledge and confident know-how has been running rampant among DIYers and designers. The fact is that most people aren't that knowledgeable about how color and light work. Their struggles are chronicled on this forum, across the www, and my email inbox.

Lack of color fundamentals has always been a problem and now it's an even bigger issue than it was before because color is marching forward. Color is going to evolve whether we choose to keep up or not.

The reason why it's an even bigger problem than before is because we are starting out behind the eight ball when it comes to good information about the fundamentals of color and light. The direction that color and paint is marching is directly into the path of some of the most complex and powerful aspects of color and light. It's marching that way because that path is where all the power and force resides; the kind of power and force that enables us to manipulate, coax, and manage color so it may behave the way we want it to and deliver what we expect it to.

Colocharts is another tool on the roster. And just like any other kind of power tool, if you don't fully understand how to use it properly, bad sh1t can happen.

Don't aim to rain on anyone's happy parade over a link to another color resource. Again it's not about happy. My intent is to try to help you understand what it can and can not do so you know how to use it so it's of benefit not detriment.


clipped on: 09.12.2009 at 02:35 am    last updated on: 09.12.2009 at 02:35 am

RE: Paint the ceiling the same color as the walls? (Follow-Up #11)

posted by: funcolors on 04.16.2009 at 04:46 pm in Paint Forum

linelle, I talk to a lot of people about color. Sometimes I think we make it harder then it has to be. (Easy for me to say sitting here in my pink slippers, I know :~D)

If you can map out what you want, put words to how you want your room(s) to look and feel, then all you have to do is translate those *wants*, those expectations into paint colors.

That's essentailly what a color consultant does. Color speaks and it's a matter of aligning expectations, architecture, inherent light, and design style/tastes with specific paint colors and nuances - tints, tones, shades, hues.

When someone is struggling, struggling, struggling, in choosing a paint color, usually that's an indication that there's some *part* out of alignment. Balance is a good thing to reach for. Don't get too wrapped around, hyper-focused on any one *part* of the process.

The right paint color in your environment can absolutely deliver a transcendent experience. Unfortunately, I think few people truly know what that means, few have experienced color in their environment that is in alignment with their own unique expectations and tolerances. The typical processes of choosing wall colors lead in directions that don't really mean anything. i.e. Inspiration pieces, pulling a color, ya know all those decorating-type color memes we've all grown up with.

From my perspective, the choice is to *decorate* with color or customize environments and create unique atmospheres with color. There's a difference.

Decorating with color isn't necessarily easier than customizing and creating - designing - with color. It's just that's what most folks think is easier because it's all they know or have been shown.

Personally, I think defining expectations and identifying tolerances is a faster, more direct, and almost guaranteed path to that transcendent experience. Because... the primary focus is humans and architecture not so much focus on the stuff. It's definitely a *big-picture* way to think about color in our environments.

The stuff from the room that most people rely on for color inspiration is not what *experiences* color, yet it is the inspiration pieces, the rugs, and whatnot that often drive the color palette -- sometimes for an entire house.

When we talk about color in terms of creating a transcendent experience, then the better known color memes seem irrelevant and kinda silly -- in a word, disconnected.


clipped on: 08.24.2009 at 07:20 pm    last updated on: 08.24.2009 at 07:20 pm

RE: Painting Over Red Paint (Follow-Up #12)

posted by: funcolors on 07.20.2009 at 06:46 pm in Paint Forum

DIY painting skillset can also come into play. Even if a lighter green has by its very nature good hiding power, if it's rolled or brushed on too thinly, not at the appropriate spread rate, then it could appear so that the inaccurate assumption is made that the problem is that a primer should have been used. When in fact they just aren't getting the right amount, enough paint on the wall.

Not enough paint on the roller or brush is, from my experience, a kinda common issue for DIYers. Usually stems from not knowing how to figure how much paint is needed from the get-go and from the first brush stroke on it's about *stretching* the paint.

It does depend on the technical features of the color per se, but it also matters how it gets put on the wall in order to cover the previous color.

Morale of the story is take the time to figure out how much paint you really need and how much is suppose to end up on the wall with each coat then buy an adequate amount of paint so you don't have to stress about stretching.


clipped on: 07.28.2009 at 02:09 am    last updated on: 07.28.2009 at 02:11 am

RE: Painting Over Red Paint (Follow-Up #15)

posted by: funcolors on 07.22.2009 at 03:42 am in Paint Forum

what a delicate way of phrasing you have

That was really nice to say, thank you. But it made me laugh. Delicate phrasing isn't exactly what funcolors is best known for. Slightly acerbic, blunt, major paint and color 'tude is probably more accurate. But at least people remember me, right? (batting eyelashes + girlie giggle)
. .
. .
. .
Okay, so for real, I only bat my eyelashes when I'm choking on hot spicy foods and a girlie giggle will happen when hell freezes over. Just because I'll be giddy to finally see it happen since everyone has been talking about it for so long.


clipped on: 07.28.2009 at 02:11 am    last updated on: 07.28.2009 at 02:11 am

RE: Painting Over Red Paint (Follow-Up #18)

posted by: mzzzjenn on 07.23.2009 at 06:36 pm in Paint Forum

Wow, I can see that I have stumbled across some pretty tough company hangin around here on the Paint board. You guys are seriously fun people!

So...funcolors, help me out here (again please) becauses in addition to realizing that I do not yet come close to posessessing a 'DIY painting skillset' (grin), I now also realize that I do not have the faintest clue as to how to describe a color properly.

My self described sagey green paint for my dining room is actually very similiar to EK's Tulip Leaves, although admittedly not quite as lush. It is the same color that is in my family room and adjoining kitchen and I adore it. We have lots of floor to ceiling windows and our house is situated with wetlands/woodlands behind us. To me, the feeling of being enveloped in 'green' is delicious. Serious question, how would you accurately describe EK's Tulip Leaves in terms of color? Inquiring minds want to know...


PS--I probably wouldn't have bet the farm on your girly giggle or batting eyelashes, but a color 'tude? Oh yeah!! That bet I'd take...


clipped on: 07.28.2009 at 02:10 am    last updated on: 07.28.2009 at 02:10 am

RE: Painting Over Red Paint (Follow-Up #19)

posted by: funcolors on 07.23.2009 at 08:29 pm in Paint Forum

It's not me. It's Chirs. I swear. He's the ornery one. (he loooooves Behr Paint, btw. Just ask him.)

The short answer: The goal when I mixed Tulip Leaves was to make a color that was alive and snappy and that people could actually live with. It's a hybrid green with what I think it the perfect nuance.

The long answer: It started out with a yellow-green provenance and I shifted it to a bluer green but not so far that it lost it's yellow, warmer edge -- ergo, hybrid.

Tulip Leaves is about balance. (insert typical funcolor's voice that always pushes color balance and balanced color). Tulip Leaves speaks to what I think an authentic, natural, earthy green should speak to. It's the right balance of everything important and pays proper respect to the *kind* of green you see, experience in nature.

To my eye, Tulip Leaves is not so overworked that all the vibrancy has been sucked out of it, but it's not SO vibrant that it's intolerable for a wide variety of color tolerance.

And it's built full spectrum. I like to imagine and pretend in my head that Tulip Leave's spectral curve could look like a pleasant, satisfied grin belonging to a person of lovely demeanor who can get along with anyone. And like that person of amicable demeanor, Tulip Leaves gets along famously with many as well; people as well as all different wavelengths of light, spectral power distribution of inherent light, that beams into a room -- any room.

We need more hybrid colors with spectral curves that make sense, not just anti-metamer. Even tho pretending they're all grins is fun, it's not practical. (that last statement might not make sense to everyone, I know.)

Here is a link that might be useful: What the heck does spectral curve mean?


clipped on: 07.28.2009 at 02:10 am    last updated on: 07.28.2009 at 02:10 am

RE: BM inhouse paint consults? Worth it? (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: funcolors on 01.14.2009 at 03:41 pm in Paint Forum

Nowadays, ya just don't know, mj. $50 could be totally in line in some areas for someone really great! I don't know for sure.

How does one become a color consultant. I get several emails about that on a regular basis. I think it helps a lot to start with some background that revolved around color. Some experience where either your soul or your paycheck - or both - was involved.

Every consultant that I know that's impressed me has a backstory heavily weighted with color experience in some form. Color hasn't been cursory, secondary, on the fringes. It's been front and center for them for a long time and their color point of view has been honed by their own eye and hands and is not predictable or textbook-like in mentality; the basics come as natural assumptions and their overall color visions and understanding are bigger, fuller, more robust, and inclusive.

That's not to say you have to have decades worth of experience with color. Color expertise and confidence can be built. Made. Done. I had a lot to learn switching dimensions of color - off the page to three dimensional environment. I did it. I'm not done. Don't think I'll ever be done.

Most of the emails I get start the same way. Some stupid reference to crayons when they were a kid or how everyone tells them how good they are with color 'cuz their own house rocks. As I get to know them a little this is what I tell them: Do not to put any of that in their "about me" part on their website. Just don't do it. It's a red flag. Like people who talk about black in definite terms as being the presence of all color and light bulbs that can toss brown light. Just don't do that either. It outs them as wanna be's and not the real deal to those who know. If you have to hark all the way back to being 12 in order to justify your ability with color, maybe color shouldn't be what you're doing. Figure out something else to say, to reference besides your box of crayons from 1975 or your own house if you want to be taken seriously by the serious color folk. Figure out how to get something done that's relevant and current with color. Doesn't have to be huge, doesn't have to be a lot. Just relevant and current.

The IACC, International Association of Color Consultants is one option to look into. Leatrice Eiseman has a few programs that she heads up that addresses advanced forms of color work. Any color oriented class from a university is likely going to be worthwhile. Tap the architectural courses, lighting courses, design courses to see what they're doing. All relevant and current, each has positives and negatives to weigh. There's not much regarding color theory that I haven't already lived so to supplement my back-in-the-day experience, I've done the IACC and am a big fan of the lighting courses offered thru the IEEE.

Beware of everything else. There's a lot of really expensive, "we'll make you a color expert in a week" type stuff out there being taught by people who start out their "about me" pages with some permutation of the lame crayon story or my other favorites rearranging furniture for their parents and painting their room as a kid. (rolling eyes)

There's some whackadoodle stuff out there too. I can go pretty darn far with the metaphysical and holistic slant when it comes to color, but geeze louise, some of the stuff goes too far -- even for me.

That is everything I know about it -- I think -- and in not so much of a nutshell. Sorry if it's too long.


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 07:17 am    last updated on: 07.26.2009 at 04:03 am

RE: Classes for Home Staging (Follow-Up #33)

posted by: funcolors on 05.25.2009 at 07:07 pm in Home Decorating Forum

Have to be careful with these kinds of "classes".

I see the same thing - seems like once a month - with folks who are hawkin' that they can make you into a color consultant in a matter of days for "as little as" a grand or so. Offered by downloads, or books, or boxed programs, just name it.

I can't believe that some people will actually PAY a company for not only color training but the "chance" to sell product for that company. Not only do they ask you to pay for training, but you also have to buy all the support materials to sell their product for them -- and people do it!

Some of these programs or classes lump staging and color together. Content is usually what they've *borrowed* from some place else and the classes are taught by people who have never actually done anything with architectural color. They just take color concepts from other sources and then talk about color in strange, abstract terms.

So the first question would be who exactly is teaching the classes and what experience do they have that's relevant -- really relevant. Second question would be if they're so good at it, why aren't they out there doing it? Are they really so accomplished that they are now in a position to just talk about the topic and ask other people to pay 'em for simply speaking well in front of a group and their ability to make a nifty Power Point presentation?

I know several people who are stagers. Couple went through training with a specific stager's organization, not the one mentioned. Some are better than others and do/have made money. From what I understand, connections are more important than a certificate from some whack-a-doodle source. They either knew someone or made a point to get to know someone who hooked them up to the market so they had access those in need of their services. Meaning those people who are trying to sell or those who are tyring to get that polish for their space and just do not have the know-how. The network thing seems to be a huge factor.

The other thing I see is the stagers who really aren't all that good or expert at any one thing in particular and they have a business model that includes everything but the kitchen sink. They're a stager, a color consultant, an expert in traffic flow and layout, they sell fabrics, window treatments and wallpaper, they "specialize" in faux finishes and all the products to go with, etc., etc., etc.

Jack of all trades master of none.

Maybe they have to offer all of that stuff because staging alone might be too difficult.


clipped on: 07.26.2009 at 04:01 am    last updated on: 07.26.2009 at 04:01 am

RE: Bright bananna yellow hallway-HELP (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: funcolors on 07.25.2009 at 01:18 am in Paint Forum

Anyway, it looked great in the ad I saw.

Yeah, that doesn't always work out so great. Ads, online pix, online swatches are misleading. They're there to give you ideas and prompt color thoughts, they aren't really guides to making color decisions. You're on your own for that.

It's easy to make a mistake with yellow. Lots of people do. Thing is you'll only make that mistake once.

Yellow is weird in that it kind of does this reflecting *within* itself thing and builds up an intensity that then projectile vomits colorfulness out into the space. And the more area it covers, the more colorfulness because it keeps multiplying intensity all over itself. Yellow isn't exclusively the only color that can multiply all over itself, it happens with the other colors too, but yellow starts out intense and it exponentially just grows from there. So if you had a MUCH larger room, you'd just have MUCH larger projectile colorfulness. The key is to not choose a vivid yellow to begin with.

Any suggestions on a new color?
The best yellows, the most liveable yellows are often found among the tans and beiges. With yellow if it appears that it's not as *sunny* or *clean* as you want it, if the sample/chip looks like it could be a little *darker* or *more yellow*, then it's likely going to be a viable yellow color option for an environment, structure. A softer, buttercream-y-er yellow could also harmonize nicely with the medium blue.

If you buy best quality grade and brand of paint, you don't need to prime. Just buy enough paint and get the right amount per coat on the wall to cover it.


clipped on: 07.26.2009 at 03:22 am    last updated on: 07.26.2009 at 03:23 am

RE: Bright bananna yellow hallway-HELP (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: azulsea on 07.26.2009 at 01:40 am in Paint Forum

FunColors, thank you so much for the advice! I really liked your description "projectile vomits colorfulness out into the space" which perfectly describes my new hallway-unfortunately:(. I will buy a softer yellow and give it a couple of coats of paint.

BTW, I've enjoyed reading your posts. You're really good!



clipped on: 07.26.2009 at 03:23 am    last updated on: 07.26.2009 at 03:23 am

RE: Please help with a paint issue! (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: funcolors on 07.13.2009 at 06:03 pm in Paint Forum

Faux finishes in general are not my favorite thing and the finishes that use red almost always end up looking cheap IMO. Professionally done finishes can be a different story but even then it depends on what and who is involved.

Lots of times you'll read color info on websites and in books and whatnot and often you'll see a caption that goes something like "the top three biggest color mistakes designers and homeowners make". That's a color sound bite crafted to get your attention. The info that follows, for the most part, is a collection of more empty color sound bites with no substance or explanation behind them. i.e. The big mistakes they cite will be along the line of mixing warm and cool colors, or mixing clear and muted color, or missing and not using the color tip that directs people to use the background color from the main fabric, etc.

Those aren't big color mistakes if not adhered to or followed. All of those are simply color design choices. No more, no less.

And a top three or five or six or whatever list doesn't even (it can't) begin to explain with any substance what those design choices are or can mean or how maybe they can work in certain situations. Fundamentally, however, I do think there are real "mistakes" that can be made. And this post is a good example and I hope you don't mind, aok, if I elaborate on what I'm talking about.

It comes down to trying to make color fit a room instead of fitting a room with color.

Placing color design "rules", color schemes, or colorways from elements like fabrics and rugs at the forefront in place of considerations of the three dimensional space to be painted is the only true color mistake one can make.

You have a very large, bright master bath. No surprise it can wear a color like deep cranberry. The water closet, however, is not very large and bright. It's a different three dimensional space with differenct characteristics. It needs to relate to the color scheme as it is a part of the master bath, but structurally it is its own space. A bigger or different light bulb would be more like a band-aid, not a real solution because the room has not gotten the fundamental consideration it needs.

The other thing is tolerance. Others could paint the smaller water closet deep cranberry and love it. You've done that and it feels, to you, like you're inside a blood vessel. A deep cranberry in the smaller space of the water closet does not suit your color tolerance and preference.

So between the needs of the space and your tolerance and despite the *color scheme*, you need different color options. The water closet doesn't have to "match" anything. It is a separate space. As long as it relates and creates an interesting sightline, you have more color options.

Your first idea of a medium gray is a good one; it could be enough without ragging red over it. If a medium gray is a part of the adjoining space but doesn't thrill you, another option is to use that medium gray on which to base a short color chip search. Pull gray chips that are lighter to much lighter in value than the existing medium gray.

The walls done in a gray would be much less light absorbing than red or any combo of red + gray. You could then add in cranberry and white accents to keep to your desire to have the color scheme repetitive and cohesive from the larger portion of the master bath to the water closet.


clipped on: 07.13.2009 at 06:38 pm    last updated on: 07.13.2009 at 06:38 pm

RE: BM inhouse paint consults? Worth it? (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: funcolors on 01.13.2009 at 05:09 pm in Paint Forum

You could easily spend $100 in paint samples before you even realize. The BenM consultant should be able to narrow the color choice field a lot faster - zero in on the good choices, nix the bad ones quickly. And be able to explain why some choices are better than others. Also give you suggestions to ponder that you'd likely never coulda, woulda thought of on your own. You need to end up understanding what's going on with color in your space better than you did before as well as make decisions on colors.

One of my own statistics is that consumers spend between $100 and $250 on paint samples alone before they call for color help.

When considering that not all colors come in the $5 sizes and some have to be purchased in quarts, it's easy to see how the samples can add up before ya know it. I've found many of the quarts purchased are "this is the color and I just wanna be sure" quarts. Everyone thinks it's the last sample they're going to have to buy and it will actually count towards the needed quantity of paint to paint the room. Ends up not working out that way.

To be honest $100 is cheap to average. Remember they are selling paint for Ben Moore so their suggestions will be limited to BenM. Luckily, BenM has a great palette. $50 is way, way too low. Even the newbiest consultants that I know with one portfolio picture to their name (usually their own house) start out at $75 an hour. Location would matter too I s'pose. East coast $100 would be a real bargain for a consultation, other areas maybe $50 is all the market can bear -- dunno.

Not sayin' it's the case with our friend's two examples above, but really low per hour rates would make me wonder if they are selling something in addition. Like drapery, rugs, accessories, etc. and are not arriving at your home strictly to consult on color. Or wonder about ability. The get what you pay for mantra usually applies to everything.

So, there's my two cents. Do it and have some fun! Definitely expect her/him to provide the large chips of any colors you are serious about. Those should be included no charge.


clipped on: 07.04.2009 at 01:32 am    last updated on: 07.04.2009 at 01:32 am

RE: yes, another FS paint question, sorry to ask for more... (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: amysrq on 02.12.2008 at 06:05 pm in Paint Forum

Yes, I am groaning! ;-) But, I like you, so here goes...

I have two walls that are adjacent to each other, perpendicularly, so their light source is somewhat different. One is the original BM Sherwood Green. The other is the EK match. On small painted samples, they look the same. In some lights they also look the same. But at some times of the day and in some photographs, they look like two different colors.

But the thing that is most striking to me is the way the BM paint looks very flat on close inspection and the EK paint looks like you could drag your fingers through it. It actually has visual depth, almost like a mirage, for lack of a better explanation. It is very soft and almost vibrates...which is what light energy is, right?

That's not a very technical explanation (Funcolors and Mindstorm can clearly run circles around me in the technical department!) but I hope it helps.


clipped on: 07.04.2009 at 01:31 am    last updated on: 07.04.2009 at 01:31 am

RE: looking for a light true yellow paint plus ? (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: funcolors on 03.16.2009 at 01:40 am in Paint Forum

A light true yellow color probably wouldn't be a good choice for a wall color. In most cases any way. Guess it depends on what it is you are trying to accomplish, why you want to find a "true" light yellow.

Yellow as a paint color can be wicked. Yellow is one of the most intense hues in the spectrum and its the one paint color that most people have the most trouble getting right. More often than not, a yellow that looks great as a paint chip ends up being way too intense, bright, overwhelming and visually assaulting. Yellow's intensity grows exponentially with the more area it covers. Tiny little yellow paint chip + expanse of walls = OMG what was I thinking.

If I was standing along side you at the paint chip display and you said that you wanted a light true yellow, we'd step away from the yellow section and start noodling amongst the beige, tan, and *whites* color chips. Looking for paint chips that had a slant of yellow that was easy to notice, pick up on, detect. This is an example of how I would define a light true yellow paint. It's Jersey Cream from Sherwin Williams and it is one of my favorite yellows to spec. Just enough punch of yellow for most exposures of light, yet it's not so obnoxious it overwhelms.


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RE: Poor quality with BM Eco Spec paint line (x-post Home Dec) (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: funcolors on 06.04.2009 at 05:39 am in Paint Forum

No way. It's never the paint. Always blame the prep and the stoopid humans, but (gasp) never the paint.

(I'm being ornery and probably a little ungracious, but honestly it's in the spirit of fun) :~D

I know I've said this kind of thing many times here before, but it floors me how many people will just assume (or let someone tell them unconditionally) that it was something they did wrong or did not do correctly and never consider it was the paint. Blame every source under the sun and outside of the can of paint but never, ever consider that the issue could be on the inside of the can.

Stuff happens. Paint is not an infallable, mistake-proof entity. Kudos to BenM for stepping up. Hope it all works out.


clipped on: 07.04.2009 at 01:28 am    last updated on: 07.04.2009 at 01:28 am

RE: Paint the ceiling the same color as the walls? (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: funcolors on 03.17.2009 at 03:16 am in Paint Forum

Will that make it feel bigger, smaller, cave like.. .or what?

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. One person's cozy space is another's claustrophobic cave. The question would be, besides seeing that method of treating the ceiling on TV, have you seen it some place in real life and what was your impression of color on the ceiling. Your response and interpretation of what a particular hue *does* to a room and a ceiling would most likely be different than my personal interpretation of same.

If you saw it on TV and it caught your attention, maybe it's something you should try. I hate the phrase it's just paint because I fully understand that it is most certainly not just paint. But, the room is 10x10 and if you were game, I'd say experiment. Do it and see what you think. If it doesn't work for you, if it doesn't meet your expectations, fit with your tolerances, then paint it back to white. You'll end up with another wrinkle to the part of your brain that deals in color. Adding on to color experiences can be a good thing especially when it's time to do another room.


clipped on: 07.04.2009 at 01:25 am    last updated on: 07.04.2009 at 01:25 am

RE: Painteasy, is it useful? (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: funcolors on 11.15.2008 at 01:21 am in Paint Forum

doesn't affect real light colors like Floetrol (for latexes) can.

Holy cow, I am so glad to see someone else mention this. I worked with one painter who put Floetrol in e.v.e.r.y. can of paint. I think it was some sort of addiction or something. He truly believed he couldn't paint without the stuff. To say he is an eccentric gentleman is an understatement. :-D

Annnyyyywhooo. I kept telling him that Floetrol was affecting the color. I could SEE it! He said I was nuts. I thought maybe I was being too picky and let it go. Then, a little while after that TommyBoy on the PainterForum alluded to the SAME THING at one time, as in XIM is a better choice over Floetrol due to Floetrol adversely affecting color. Never have seen much about it before or since and of course when it comes to the fine nuances of color, a painter is the last person you want to ask! lol! Usually it's not their favorite *part* of the painting process to discuss at great length.


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 08:04 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 08:04 am

RE: paint color fan decks (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: funcolors on 08.23.2008 at 01:32 am in Paint Forum

LRV a.k.a. luminous reflectance factor deals strictly with how much light the color absorbs and how much is reflected. LRV is measured with equipment and it is a separate *part* of color from visual lightness and darkness a.k.a. gray scale or nuance.

Colors that are close in LRV can vary dramatically when compared by nuance. Meaning similar LRV numbers are no guarantee for pleasing color harmonies or relationships. LRV is specific to just color value (how light/how dark); it addresses just that one part of color and tells you nothing about a color's intensity (tone/nuance/dullness/brightness).

The color fan decks are not arranged in any order to facilitate color selection. They are logically ordered and organized for ease of reference for paint manufacturers and color mixers and not for coordination or harmonies. I think a lot of people think they can "go one strip over" or "always go one up on the strip" and it actually means something. It doesn't. There are no hidden secrets or clever tips to using a fandeck.

Here's more info on LRV.

Here is a link that might be useful: LRV how to use it and what it means


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 08:00 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 08:00 am

RE: Argh: yet ANOTHER stressful trip to the paint store! (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: funcolors on 08.06.2008 at 04:38 am in Paint Forum

Many of my clients have told me that the best part of hiring a color consultant wasn't the help with color but not having to deal with painters, contractors and the paint stores. All of them can be a major PITA.

The most ironic thing I've noticed is on the front end, when they're getting you all geared up and all sure about "what you really need", the expertise they throw at you is so incredibly confident and full. But, when something goes wrong and you go back to complain or seek assistance in dealing with the aftermath of any bad advice initally given, suddenly nobody knows nothin'.

If you find a good person to work with at a paint store, or a great painter who knows how to listen as well as swing a brush, it's a great thing. I find myself torn between wanting to sing their praises and sending them business and keeping the contact info secret 'cuz I don't want to share!


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RE: BM Color Viewer, do you see true or close to true colors? (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: funcolors on 04.10.2009 at 01:28 am in Home Decorating Forum

Sherwin Williams' STIR magazine had a good refresher on this situation this month. As the old saying goes, monitors are like snowflakes, no two are the same.

I have three monitors and have a favorite that's getting old. Snowflakes eventually melt and age wears hard on monitors causing a fading away of sorts.

Monitors shine colored light into your eyes and in real life color is a reflection. Color on your monitor is additive. Paint colors are subtractive. The two *kinds* of color will never sync up.

Calibrating and adjusting color settings on the monitor, and fiddling with the ambiant light in the background, and the color directly behind framing your monitor as you work can help improve the relationship of beamed light to reflected light, but you'll never see color on your monitor match the color chips you can hold in your hand.

I'm dreading going shopping for a new monitor.

The quality at which the color is *constructed* and presented from those color related websites matters as to how well color can relay on various monitors. Have to assume they do all they can to control what can be controlled on their end. It's the other end that is next to impossible to anticipate and control -- 'cuz monitors are like snowflakes. :~D


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 07:51 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 07:51 am

RE: Best paint for Color Quality (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: funcolors on 02.14.2008 at 03:21 pm in Paint Forum

kashka, I'm big on not confusing paint with color. Be that as it may, the quality of base, how white it is, can indeed aid in a better "quality of color". Technically. However, that "gray" you mention could have a purpose and place too so I'd likely not discount it as lesser color quality. Maybe the paint did change, maybe it didn't. Does it really matter because it is what it is - now - to your eye and in your light. I can explain.

Each of the brand's palettes that I work with have distinct *personalities* for lack of a better word. Pratt & Lambert, the old Martha Stewart colors from SW, SW and BenM are close, but you can still see a difference between the two. The uber brands, the full spectrums seem to have a bit more soulfulness in my opinion. Farrow & Ball brings something to the table that no other brand does. One can describe and note the differences between the collections of DK, EK, and Citron, you can see and feel the different artist's color perspective in each.

For me it is two-fold. It's a matter of matching the right palette to the right person as well as crafting the best partnership possible to the inherent light situation. The contents of the room and design style must be considered too, but not till the end because that's the easy part. It's the collaboration of color and people and light and space that's the trickiest. Once you get that figured out, coordinating colors and creating color schemes is the fun, easy part and most all color collections offer a broad range of colors with which to do just that.

That's how I use the different palettes and bascially exploit various qualities of color -- even the "gray" ones. Can't say I think one palette is any better or that one brand offers a better "quality" of color because it all depends on what is needed and the specific situation. Not all palettes are created equal and that's a good thing because every person and every space is unique. When someone comments that they find a particular palette "muddy", they probably do. To their eye and in their house. Have to take feedback like that with a grain of salt. You do have to *see* for yourself in your own room/house and make your own evaluation. Just the nature of color.

Having a variety of palettes to choose from is awesome. I'm fully aware that some people are limited in what brands they have to choose from. That's okay. Sometimes you have to make the best of it and just make it work. Sometimes keeping the field of color choice small is a benefit too - it's less confusing and overwhelming. Small color collections are great for those who easily feel overwhelmed by color choices. i.e The new BenM Affinity collection is a nice alternative to their two super decks of a zillion colors.

Whether it's the palette from Kilz Casual Colors or Ellen Kennon, they all contribute something and have the ability to offer a variety of color solutions. It just depends on what you're lookin' for. There's my subjective input. :)


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RE: Can you DARKEN a paint color??? (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: funcolors on 04.08.2009 at 06:15 pm in Paint Forum

Can try it if you have some time.

Try it with 4 or 8 oz. of your golden color. Keep track of how much brown you add. Some colors I can do in 4 oz., for some reason other colors I *need* a whole cup -- have no clue why. YMMV Everyone plays with color differently, no one way is THE right way. You're allowed to develop your own method, it should be fun. :D

You have to paint out and then thoroughly dry out each rendition of color before moving on if you're only working with one sample and darkening at increased proportions in steps. You can also run two or three samples at a time adding in different steps of brown paint to each - so you essentially have a darker, medium and lighter version of your adjusted golden color going at the same time.

Basically, work in smaller quantities then calculate up for larger quantity.

Siphoning paint to tint darker sample(s) out of your gallon means you really have to pay attention to the math when you go to calculate up to darken all of your paint.

Remember that even if you're uber careful with the numbers, you'll likely never get a spot on, perfect match to your custom gallon if you need more paint. Have a plan to make sure you're darkening more than enough quantity.

Another option is buy a quart from of your color. You can order it 25% darker in a mini can or a quart. I'd suggest a quart and make it clear when ordering that they HAVE to put the 25% darker formula on the can in detail.

Yet another option is to just shop for another color chip that meets your golden color but more brown expectation -- this is a good option. Cheaper, less messy, simpler, more accurate, oftentimes faster.


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RE: What color to paint the reveal? (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: funcolors on 03.21.2009 at 01:05 am in Paint Forum

It's common for different rooms to be different colors. I follow one rule of thumb. Colors follow formal traffic flow. Flooring materials and thresholds often follow this same rule of thumb. Color and materials should *spill* from the front of the house (the path you would follow walking from the front door into each of these spaces) to the less formal back of the house.

Color harmonies from one room to the next usually take care of themselves. It often happens naturally. Odds are you would not choose a color for the dining room, for example, if you did like how it looked juxtaposed to the living room -- so naturally any juncture where the two colors meet will look just fine.

I've colored against this rule of thumb before. I call it coloring upstream lol! :D and I haven't been able to make it work. It looked off to me and those involved and I ended up having those areas repainted to follow the staid *color spills to the back* rule of thumb.

Not sure if this is the kind of color transition you were talking about or not, but hope it helped some. :D


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RE: explanation of numbers on paint color-40YY 83/021 (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: funcolors on 07.01.2008 at 01:46 pm in Paint Forum

ICI and Glidden share a palette or two so that color number works for either brand.

Those numbers represent hue, LRV and chroma. The first set indicate value on a scale of 00-99 within a color family. So YY is Yellow-Yellow. This notation isn't always clear with some colors unless you are familiar with the colorants used to mix the colors.

The second set is the LRV. The higher the number the lighter the color, the lower the darker the color. 83 tells me it's a light color whereas 10 would tell me it's a really dark color.

The last three represent the chroma of the color. The higher the number the more intense and a lower number being an indication of a more muted tone. So 21 tells me this is a *soft* color, not vivid.

40YY 83/021 is in the current color decks with the name Minimalist White - perhaps it is the same color, just an updated name.


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RE: How do you use a paint wheel? (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: funcolors on 12.20.2008 at 04:25 am in Paint Forum

Well, no one else answered. So I will. My answers to these questions are usually very blunt, damning to entire industries, and often leaves original posters with more questions than they started out with. So here goes any way.

No, you are not suppose to pick from the same row (or strip of colors).

You can if you want to.

There is no secret formula or process to using strips of paint colors or entire paint color wheels.

The paint colors are ordered for organization and easy of reference mainly for the people who sell, mix, and handle the aspects of getting color to consumers in the form of paint.

I've read all kinds of crazy tips about how to use strips of paint colors. There are no secrets or tips or short cuts.

You have to define your expectations, identify your tolerances, evaluate the proportion of space, observe the natural light, take inventory of artificial light, and LASTLY consider permanent, semi-permanent, and transient elements that reside in the space.

Biggest mistake people make is buying into the inspiration piece business or thinking pulling a color out of something is going to properly fit a space with color. It's not. If you're going to chose that path with color, then you might as well "always choose the third one down" and call it a day.


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RE: Fair eval of paint colors (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: funcolors on 03.31.2009 at 01:17 pm in Paint Forum

"How much of an area do you need to paint before you like it?"
That one made me smile. :D I know what you mean tho.

I think people differ when it comes to previewing color. Some people are better at morphing color from small sample into volume in their head. Other people need to paint out entire walls. Donald Kaufman suggests at least 5 ft. of color AND put as much of the contents back as possible in order to properly preview color.

Worse thing you can do is a bunch of patches on the wall. Current wall color does influence how the new color(s) show, no doubt about that. What matters is if one has the capacity to see *around* that factor -- edit out the old and superimpose the new in the environment.

Faron is so right about the *relief* of color samplings. You really do need to be aware of what and how you paint anything on the walls -- it can absolutely matter to how your final finish comes out.

I agree about the quarts too. Color sample pots are wonderous fun things, but if super uber color accuracy is on the line, a quart of the real deal is 'bout as close as you can get.

There's many things in paint world that I think are broken -- no surprise to most who know me :D -- the shape of how we sample is on *the list*. Color chips and samples in the shapes of squares and rectangles aren't the right answer. Circles are more agreeable to how our eyeballs and vision system works.


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 07:24 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 07:24 am

RE: warm and cool colors - in need of a tutorial (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: funcolors on 04.04.2009 at 11:38 pm in Home Decorating Forum

Color temperature is tougher in decorating because you're working with color in a three-dimensional realm. 99.9% of color information available does not addresses color from a three-dimensional scope. That presents many opportunities to deconstruct color and think about it more truthfully and accurately.

Someone suggested I start by selecting a "warm" or "cool" palette to help harmonize the rooms.

That's one way to look at. Another is to use that level of contrast. Color is about relationships and to make believe that only the cool colors can play well with other cool colors and warm with warm is not the truth of how color works. It's an easier approach, for sure, but it is by no means the only approach. It could be argued that the rule of thumb of cool with cool and warm with warm really isn't a level of color "harmony" at all -- it just matches.

It's the very same with intensity. Keeping to all one intensity or chromatic value room to room isn't THE way to do it. It's just one way to color a house. Juxtaposing a clearer color next to a more muted color can indeed make site lines that are interesting and help define architecture -- it's a way to meet certain expectations.

how does dark, old woodwork factor into the warm/cool thing?

It's a huge factor. Ya know, I'm always saying that paint does not have to be last, you don't have to have an inspiration piece and *pulling a color* is just one way to look at a color challenge.

To say that paint color should always be last is implying that it could be first. Paint color can never be first. Not possible.

This is where your woodwork comes into play. Like I said before, color is about relationships and you can start building color relationships once you have the non-transient elements established in the room. The woodwork, the flooring, cabinetry, bookshelves, etc. From those non-transient factors, you can build a shell that will gracefully house whatever contents you want to throw in there.

Whatever transient elements you choose are going to "go with" the non transient elements of the room -- the shell. You're not going to choose a sofa that pales off once it's set on your hardwoods. So logically, if you craft the wall color to *harmonize* with the known non-transient elements, you're gonna be fine.

It's not necessary to have everything in place to paint a room. Can if ya want, but far too many people put off coloring their environment waiting for that last piece of fluff to be installed. It might be right around the corner -- or it might be years off in the future. Waiting on a *thing* that may or may not ever materialize before you bring color into your experience is a waste of architecture, and time, IMHO. You can color for your now.

When it comes to paint color per se, you have to be aware of what "warm" and "cool" really means. In situ undertone and color temperature is revealed when the wall color is juxtaposed to the other colors and elements and exposed to the inherent light in the space. What makes a color "cool" or "warm" is determined when it's experienced in the three-dimensional space it will reside. Outside of that experience, on it's own, whether a color is labeled "warm" or "cool" by some other sets of eyeballs is irrelevant to you and your three-dimensional space.

Labeling a paint color as warm or cool can be useful but it's not a fact. It's just a temporary way to organize and categorize paint chips for the preliminary stages of coloring.

But the blue-greens, which I thought would give the rooms a sense of peacefulness, actually seem to do the opposite when placed up against the dark reddish wood. I'm guessing it's because of the high contrast?

According to your tolerance, it's the opposite of peacefulness. To someone else that playing of contrasts would be a spectacular way to set off, highlight, pay homage to the fabulous woodwork. So for you, a calmer flavor of color harmony would be best. For someone else the amped up vibration of the blue-green to the reddish wood is fabulousness. So to say that keeping an even keel of any level of color contrast is the best way to go about coloring environments would be correct in some instances, but not all. What's the saying....??? even a broken clock is right twice a day.... kinda the same thing.


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RE: Color match for paint? (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: funcolors on 03.25.2009 at 04:21 pm in Home Decorating Forum

Oh, geeze. I really have lost count of the number painters who swear they can match full spectrum color and fail. SW Relic Bronze mixed FS was one of the worst followed by the Tulip Leaves, Slate, and Mushroom incidents. Oy.

There is no such thing as full spectrum *pigments*. EK in particular uses the ICI colorants and ICI base. It's her method, recipe for including a representational amount from each basic spectral hue that makes it full spectrum. Black is not a spectral hue (obviously) therefore using black to mix color is a different way to go about it.

Peeling into formulas for the average consumer of color can be confusing. If you go down this path, trying to determine what FS is and what it is not, just remember that just because a color's formula may not have black included, does not mean the color is comprised of a full spectrum mix of colorants.

FS in concept is mixing color so it has a wider variety of inherent *colors* so it's fully armed to work with a multitude of different qualities of light. You can't (for the most part) control the quality of light, i.e. can't spin your house so your north-facing kitchen is due south so its natural light source is more robust, even and balanced. But you can - to a point - control certain characteristics of paint colors so IT is more robust.

Then there's the whole metaphysical and therapeutic aspects of how full spectrum color enriches the experiences of shelter. Another place to park your head and mull around what FS color means and ponder what could be achieved by *matching* FS color instead of living it.


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 07:19 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 07:19 am

RE: Please Educate Me About Paints (Follow-Up #26)

posted by: funcolors on 03.25.2009 at 12:18 pm in Home Decorating Forum

Each uber brand has its own color sense about it and it all really depends on who ya ask. I can explain.

The final finish of paint matters because we *see* color on many levels. Our eyes see and brain registers color in an order: hue, chroma, lightness. When we sum up an environment as a whole, it's the lightness:darkness contrast that impacts our visual system first. All that means something to how one wishes to color a human environment -- to what degree is entirely a matter of choice. And it's in that choice that one needs to decide what they want, expect, and can tolerate from color.

There is no doubt that FPE, F&B, EK, C2, DK, etc. each bring something different to the table. Because of the differing finishes, and because of the differing colorants, and because of the specialized color processes they each have a special quality of nuance to offer.

Nuance is where the rubber meets the road with color. That's where all the magic is. That's where it's decide how the spectral curves and ups & downs and ins & outs of a color will play with the inevitably varied and imbalanced unique combination of wavelengths of light in a room.

Nuance comes from within color and the components used to create and build that factor each matter -- a lot. The quality of the base in general will matter as will it's whiteness. So the better a can of paint starts out, the better quality of color it's able to deliver. It's the combination of quality base material, caliber of colorant, and art of literal color design, and its final finish or *visual hand* that add up to what we are able to debate, discuss and compare as complexity (or quality of color) and depth of one paint's color attributes to another.

Each brand of paint has the potential *to be the best*. It's simply a case of when they are the right fit for human and project.

It's kinda difficult to directly compare FPE to F&B in terms of color quality and depth. I can give you a few examples. We've all read differing comments about various brand's: EK colors are muddy, F&B has an odd collection of colors, DK's colors are washed out nothingness, FPE has an array of colors that strike the eye harshly, and on and on...

All those comments are true.... according to someone! :~D Color is intensely personal and the huge buffet of paint/color choices available to us means that now, unlike ever before, every paint job is a very custom paint job. Even if the choice is as simple as Home Depot or Lowe's.

So we can deconstruct FPE and F&B if we want to. I can see and agree with whatever characteristics someone else is seeing in those color palettes. Essentially, when it comes to color we are all correct about what we see.

I hope I answered you fly -- and that I made some sense! I'm feeling I may have rambled on like a crazy lady but I wanted to really answer you with good thoughts and not just bunch adjectives together and call it a color review FPE vs. F&B.


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 07:09 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 07:09 am

RE: Talk to me about color... (Follow-Up #16)

posted by: funcolors on 05.16.2009 at 06:30 pm in Home Decorating Forum

What LRV area should I be looking for?
Fifty is the average guideline for residential interiors. It is just that, a guideline. LRV is a helper number, a clue, it's not a formula or a rule.

But doesn't it stand to reason that lighter colors are going to have a higher LRV?
It is a fact that lighter colors measure upwards towards 100 and darker colors dip down into single digits.

I'm looking for a rich color, but I don't want it to look like I'm walking into a tomb.
This is where it gets a snidge more complicated. Descriptive aspects of color like richness, depth, complexity do not come from the part of color that is LRV. LRV is a measurement of how much energy (light) a color absorbs and how much energy (light) it reflects.

The dimension of color that captures what we perceive as rich or complex is a visual evaluation, not a measurable *part* like LRV. That dimension of color is known by many terms: value, chroma, saturation, tints-tones-shades, grayscale, intensity. How has the color been constructed so that it appears as muted, dulled and how far has it been moved away from its root hue to a true neutral gray -- that's the color wheel thing you've seen with a grayscale bar-type portion running thru the middle of a slice of a basic color wheel.

It's the two *parts* together, literal lightness/darkness which is LRV and evaluated lightness/darkness which is intensity that combine to give a color a sense of nuance.

Coloring 3D environments and not fully understanding nuance (some concept of nuance not necessarily mine) is a lot like constantly, relentlessly hiking up hill with no downhill breaks -- ever.

Partnering nuance with inherent light to meet expectations and tolerances is key to 3D color design .... And that's what I interpret you are seeking when I read this thought:

I'm looking for a rich color, but I don't want it to look like I'm walking into a tomb.

What you can *do* with this information is still keep a keen eye on LRV. Use LRV as a clue to help you target paint colors, but also examine and evaluate the colors with an awareness of complexity, not just light or dark. You are looking for the right balance that resonates with you, your space, and the quality of daylight and artifical light you have to work with.

My guess is that you are wanting to find just the right color with just the right tick of nuance but you really didn't know what you were looking for, or at, in the paint chips and samples thus far. That notion takes this conversation full circle back to your original inquiry which was about cutting formulas by percentages.

Intuitively I think you knew that something needed to be done to the colors you have been considering -- they were close, but that balance, tick of nuance hasn't been there so far. If what I've said makes any sense to you so far, it's possible that you can now go see if you can just find the color you want as I'm hoping it's now a little easier to understand what it is you are looking for. Maybe I should say what I think you're looking for.


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 06:59 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 07:00 am

RE: A conversation about color, and how to see and use it. (Follow-Up #22)

posted by: funcolors on 04.02.2009 at 04:22 pm in Home Decorating Forum

Funcolors, Amy and others have used full spectrum colors like EK. When I hear conversations of those paints, it seems like the users are embracing the different nuances that they bring to a space.

First let's think about how we change or create nuance. What is it. Nuance = LRV + Chromaticity. LRV is how light or dark, how much light a color can measurably reflect back into the room and how much it absorbs. Chromaticity is pureness of hue, how close is the color to a neutral gray. Two separate *parts* of color, each normally referred to as a value. LRV is light/dark value and chromaticity is grayscale value.

Changing nuance - or purposefully constructing nuance is done via the mixing colorants process. You have a choice. Go tonalist and use black, grays or go colorist and don't use black, grays but instead use chords of complements.

With full spectrum, yes, the expectation is already in place that the color is responsive to light. It has a *full spectrum* of molecules of color built in to it with which to react to, and interact with, whatever mlange of wavelengths of light take up residence in a room.

The nuance of a full spectrum color is different than the nuance of a non full spectrum color because of the basic building blocks of the color. There's no way they can be equal or the same. So the quality of nuance that full spectrum color users are embracing and accepting as it changes is different.

You can produce what appears as *the same* color using different methods. Take a color chip to the paint store and one person will custom color match it one way; hand the same chip to a different person and they'll likely chose another route - a similar, but different combination of colorants to arrive at the same end game. Both will produce what is essentially *the same* color, but each will have a different timbre of nuance because of the amounts of each colorant and the precise combination of the colorants chosen at the descretion of the color mixer.

I feel it is the timbre of nuance of full spectrum color that people embrace.

Does it take a different type of person to like a color that seems to be in a constant flux or does the average user just need to be told that it's OK for paint to change color at times?

It's funny because as a retort to what full spectrum is, I've seen people respond that they don't want a schizo paint color on their walls that radically morphs their room as the light changes.

Part of establishing *expectations* is sharing the understanding that ALL wall colors respond to the light and change. The difference is that in this new age of color, you can control more aspects of how wall color responds to the unique, inherent light of your space. You can make choices custom to your tolerances and inherent lighting.

A single paint color is gonna change wall to wall, angle to angle. That's a fact, can't do anything about it. What we can do, to an extent, is choose the how, choose the degree, choose the kind of change we prefer. It's a choice. Could even look at as a *new* layer of contrast with which to create unique atmosphere. Juxtapose a highly responsive paint color to one that has the ability to stay more constant light source to light source. It's too darn much fun.

Again, FS vs. regular color is a choice, it's not a competition as far which one is real, or better, or worthy of your dollars. It's simply about options. In fact I noticed on the Devine website recently that Gretchen is talking up the constancy, the low metameric risk with which her colors are mixed. If I read it all right, she's now softly marketing the opposite of what full spectrum color is.

My thoughts are Devine's proclamations about the constancy of their colors is far easier for more people to accept than the chameleon intents of full spectrum color. Ironic because fundamentally Devine and FS are both peddling the same aspect of color, just at opposite ends of the effect. Metamerism has long been an undesirable element to coloring in general and the old guard of color can't imagine why shifting color would be a good thing -- ever. Ironic that they understand that you can *do* stuff to limit metamerism, but they don't accept the flip side that you can *want* it and purposefully use it. It's like saying you can have night but day isn't convenient for me to get my head around so it's not real.

Color lines like even keeled Devine will be considered valid and garner acceptance while suspecting criticism will continue to dog full spectrum.


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 06:56 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 06:56 am

RE: A conversation about color, and how to see and use it. (Follow-Up #8)

posted by: funcolors on 04.02.2009 at 02:55 am in Home Decorating Forum

Oy, were going places with color that's a lot more complex than what makes the light in Paris pink! I'll do my best to explain myself as clearly as I can muster.

North light is great for artists' studios! I think instead of neutral tho, I like the word balanced better -- as in a nice, balanced mix of wavelengths. Typical midday north light is comprised mostly of wavelengths from the blue end of the spectrum. Average midday north daylight is an industry standard by which to set white points and they are used for all kinds of comparisons and calibrations. No doubt you've seen "D65" if you've ever Googled much about color. The standard of D65 is meant to simulate the qualities, the spectral distribution of average, midday north daylight.

North light doesn't *beam* into a room. It's more of a spilling, bouncing, or toppling in. A north facing room never experiences direct beams like the other exposures and that makes it special and different. It's the indrectness of north daylight in addition to its balance that makes north so appealing for a studio. It'd be a stretch for me to ever call north light "bright" but, hey, maybe somewhere to someone it is. :D

South light is considered balanced as well and it notoriously has the broadest range when it comes to *wearing* paint colors. You can do a lot with a southern exposure because of its balance and its direct exposure and brightness -- simply put, south brings the light. I find south facing rooms the easiest to fit with wall color.

Even tho south light is nicely balanced, has a nice variety in its spectral distribution, its brightness or intensity isn't as well suited for a studio. Intense daylight strips saturation from color and can cause glare, so indirect, balanced north light is a better choice.

So, if midday north light is so well balanced and used as an industry standard for setting white points, why doesn't white wall colors work in a north facing room? Well, for one, a room is three-dimensional and industry standards are meant for other things that are not. North light may be balanced, but that's not saying there's a lot of it -- or enough of it. Light paint colors need LIGHT to be seen. So while the ambiant light of a north room might be balanced, there's not enough of it to reflect all the stuff in a white wall color that needs reflected so it shows pretty and *full* and so your eyeballs can see it. What you'll end up with are walls that are suppose to look like some flavor of a yummy white but instead appear as a flat dirtied-gray, anemic, and lifeless.

I've mentioned several times before that the key to selecting the right paint color is partnering inherent light with the right nuance of color. White by nature of it being white won't have nuance to partner well with north light in order to meet your average color expectation.

So how do you "warm" a north facing room. Any room that is properly fitted with wall color will feel inviting and perceptually, not literally, warm and comfortable because the color fits the way it's suppose to. That happens when the right paint color is selected based on the inherent qualities of light. Not necessarily a rug, or a vase, or a window treatment.

I would have helped you adjust your expectations of what "warm" means for a north facing room. I would have shown you, helped you see that a "warm" environment can be constructed by methods other than by use of the colors that are universally accepted as being "warm" in color temperature.

"Invalidate any one point of view, method, or philosophy of color" is speaking to the processes of coloring environments and the actual products that are available to the consumer of color. I'm not speaking to color per se, color as radiant energy. I'm talking about how we go about coloring our environments and the color memes that so many hold up as proper examples of the right and practical ways to approach color implying that any other approach that differs is not "right" or "practical".

Whew! Now I need a Diet Coke, extra ice. :~D


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 06:52 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 06:52 am

RE: A conversation about color, and how to see and use it. (Follow-Up #4)

posted by: funcolors on 04.01.2009 at 07:48 pm in Home Decorating Forum

Oh wow, I'd have to say if indeed I am an expert of any kind, I am one of many here. A bundle of talent and knowledge hangs out here, I'm nothin' special. Trust me. :~D

What makes the light in Paris pink? Is that the best color question ever or what?! Too fun. Parma, those photos are beyond amazing.

I kind of think the answer is boring tho. We have a set bandwidth of light/color that we can see, approx. 400 nm to 700 nm - rounded give or take a few. Whatever mix of wavelengths come with the day are what come with the day and whatever slant to the sun a certain locale has will determine that mix of light. Different weather and air conditions notwithstanding.

Regionally in the U.S. I do think it has more to do with lattitude as opposed to longitude. I mean just *how* different is a dreary day in the northwest from a dreary day on Long Island. Once you start jumping parallels is where I think *marked* differences and distinguishable color personalities, or quality of light, are significant. Within those parallels, I think there are fair averages and general assumptions that are reasonable to make; those parallels or bands across the U.S. are a reasonable way to organize and categorize when it comes to color. According to me any way. :D

Indoors, ambiant light is from all sources bouncing around the room. It comes from a multitude of reflective surfaces and lends a low level, diffuse, omnidirectional quality of illumination to the space. While all those different sources do add up to a certain atmosphere in a room, not any one thing particular is able to influence the inherent characteristic of natural light source.

In other words, you can bathe a due north exposure in as much white paint as you want, but that due north room is never going to be anything but what it is -- cool and dim. The result will never be thought of as light and airy, it will simply be a dim room painted white. That's the kind of understanding that's useful to reach for when setting out to define expectaions and color tolerances. Obviously, room to room inherent quality of light will differ because of fenestration - or a lack of. That kind of color truth is often contrary to the standard color memes, however.

Just like there are differences room to room there are differences person to person. Some women do see an extra wavelength in the *red* area of the spectrum. And some people are highly sensitive to the vibrational energies that color contributes to our environments. Others, not so much. Doesn't mean anyone is broken or deficient in some way. Just means we're all unique, just like each square o'dirt we each call home or work is unique.

Because of that uniqueness, I think it's super important to keep egos in check and minds open when it comes to color and design -- especially in this amazing new age of color that we get to live in.

I truly believe, and I've said it before, that individuals who feel some kind of *need* to invalidate any one point of view, method, or philosophy of color, are the ones who allow more ego than knowledge and have the most to learn.


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 06:50 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 06:50 am

RE: Funcolors...please (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: funcolors on 02.26.2008 at 06:12 pm in Paint Forum

I don't have an answer, but I can say that I understand and I do know what you mean.

I have said on many a forum that the individual colorants that go into a can of paint do not mean a thing -- they do not give you one fat clue how the color will render in the space. It's confusing. Unless you know "the code" as I call it for each brand, quanitity and base, there's no secret or pattern or guidance to be found in looking at the formulas. Even the brands that offer hand-painted chips have some issues. EK started indentifying what base/sheen each of her samples were painted with - 'cuz it can matter.

The best way to sample a color is to buy a quart of it in the base, sheen and brand that you want to use. Even then!!! I have seen slight variances from quart to gallon.

However, it is fair to expect that the colors shouldn't change THAT much. Especially with Sherwin Williams with their Sher-Color gizmo and all that. But, stuff happens... and then there's light. You can take your color chip and a dried sample over to the paint store windows, even step outside to make sure you have a "match" before heading home, only to find when you get home that what's in your new gallons does not match your chips as well as you thought. Paingtuy speaks to this really well - constancy and metamerism.

It's a matter of expectations and the reality of color to a point. Color is gonna change, nothing absolute about it. Have to stay a bit flexible and build into your expectations that color, especially wall color in a 3D environment, will have dimension and within that dimension resides the natural and largely unpredictable phenomenon of color.

Then, there's the whole issue of black. Do you think that the Color to Go Jug B. Buff is *prettier* than the Cashmere Blonde? We could get off on the subject of how there is a huge advantage of built in flexibility that the uber brands of paint/color bring to the table, but we've probably already had plenty of that around here. :-)

Suffice it to say, this is yet another reason, example of why I am such a proponent of multi-pigmented, full spectrum, uber brands of color. Leaving black out can be a benefit. The more pigments in the can used to mix the color can be a benefit. How the *same color* can be mixed using blue, magenta, and deep gold OR just black and deep gold is probably the coolest and most fun thing ever!!!!

The diff is the complexly mixed color like the blue/magenta/deep gold version of B. Buff is apt to find a more robust selection of wavelengths of light to play with and comes with the firm expectation that it will shift and change. If there is a small expectation of constancy, then one tends to be more accepting of the general and varied appearance of the color. An expectation for a literal translation of an ink on paper chip to wall color, probably isn't all that realistic in the grand scheme of things and can make you crazy.

You've got what you've got now and hopefully SW mixed it so that the Color To Go and the Cashmere *appear* close enough to reasonably meet your expectations - once the color(s) is painted out on all the walls, hopefully it visually evens out and blends into the color(s) you thought you were getting.

The reason, the real reason, that your gallons of Cashmere B. Buff have just black and deep gold instead of a combo of blue/magenta/deep gold colorants may very well have to do with the Color to Go vs. Cashmere base -- truly could.

But, there is also the color conspiracy theory that suggests that the simpler, black/deep gold version of B. Buff is a heck of a lot cheaper, easier, and faster to mix in bulk (gallons and 5 gallons) as opposed to one lil ole Color To Go jug.

The truth may never be known.... :D


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 06:47 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 06:47 am


posted by: parma42 on 02.26.2008 at 10:53 am in Paint Forum

I just saw your post on an earlier thread and have been reading many of your older posts(and loving them).

After going through 20 quarts of SW testers and making my choices I settled on Blonde/Ivoire for the majority and Biltmore Buff for the back bedrooms. Bathrooms are different. After the paint was ordered in Cashmere I found out that the formulas are totally different. The reasoning they gave was that the base of Cashmere is different so the colors change too.

I guess I can buy that and have given the formulas in a previous post. The latest I checked on was the Biltmore Buff. In the "quarts to go" it was blue, magenta and deep gold. The Cashmere is black and deep gold. How on earth could you get the same color from that?

I've already painted samples from the "new" Blonde and the tester finding a difference.

I know I'm stuck with this and am nervous every time I check on a room that the painter is done with. Would just really appreciate your opinion.



clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 06:46 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 06:47 am

RE: Best Way to 'Match' One Paint Brand to Another? (Follow-Up #20)

posted by: linelle on 06.01.2009 at 10:05 am in Paint Forum

Funcolors, you may know a thing or two about color, but you REALLY know how to write. Love what you have to say and how you say it!


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 06:38 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 06:38 am

RE: Need good beige between Bone White and Manch. Tan (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: lisah on 06.07.2009 at 03:17 pm in Paint Forum

Thank you so much--this is by far the best advice I've ever gotten about paint color! I can see now that what I've trying to do with the Personal Color Viewer is to gauge the LRV. I'm definitely going to sign up for large color chips. Thanks again!


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 06:37 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 06:37 am

RE: Need good beige between Bone White and Manch. Tan (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: funcolors on 06.07.2009 at 03:12 am in Paint Forum

lisah, maybe you should register with BenM as a *designer* ;) so you can get the large sized Ben Moore paint chips. See the link below to register.

I'm sure you know by now since you've been playing with the Viewer, that it can not show you true to life color. It's two different *spaces* of color. Viewer is additive and your eye sees the emitted light and paint chips are subtractive and the eye sees the reflected light. It is possible to sync up between the two spaces, but it's no small task and not the kind of thing people who buy those viewers are in a position to do -- the viewers allude to the differences of color on the monitor to paint chips, but I don't think it's explained often enough nor good enough.

So my point is (finally :~D) maybe quit looking to the viewer and let up on the sample buyin' a little and see about getting big chips instead and see how that works better for you.

The other thing that might help is to take a look at LRV. Here's more info about LRV. (This link will open a new window.) LRV.

One way to use LRV is to set benchmarks as you are trying colors. Here are the LRVs for the colors on the table right now. You can see that you are indeed moving to chips that are lighter than Shaker and Manchester Tan.

If after looking at Barley B. and Gentle C. you still feel the chips are too dark, you might want to nudge up a bit and start pulling chips that have LRV closer to 80-ish instead of the 70-ish range.

Shaker Beige - 55.8
Manchester Tan - 63.9
Barely Beige - 73.5
Gentle Cream - 73.5

Another chip to thro in the mix might be Lambskin 1051, LRV 73.9. In a way, you could say that it's in between Barely B. and Gentle C. If Gentle C. is still too grayed or maybe even greenish and Barely B. ends up looking not grayed enough and maybe too yellow, #1051 might be something to look at.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ben Moore Large Color Chips Registration


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 06:37 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 06:37 am

RE: Best Way to 'Match' One Paint Brand to Another? (Follow-Up #19)

posted by: funcolors on 06.01.2009 at 01:10 am in Paint Forum

Me!?!?!?, hail no, I'm not that crazy lady. Good heavens she's a kook.



Well, okay, so maybe it might be me. ;-)

If we recall, in my very first response to lottamoxie the very first line in my reply was:

"Depends on how you want to define "match". Depends on what *kind* of color you're talking about."

Just like almost everything else in color world, you gotta take it one person, one room, one color, one *kind* of paint at a time -- there is not much that is one-size fits all.

I am so on board with not being able to "color match" the uber brands. If there is parade to raise awareness to prevent people from wasting their time and money doing so, I volunteer to carry the front banner.

In my last post I talked about the two women at the Home Depot. In that example I would be the lady with the tragic trainwreck F&B color matching experience. I, personally, could never be the tickled pink woman who saved $20 and walks away thinking she got her boutique paint & color at a bargain price.

As always, I can tell ya exactly why THAT scenario as well as the project from the Kennon site is different than lottamoxie's specific "color matching" endeavor that we have been discussing so far. Get comfy. :D

1. Lotta is looking at matching a Ben Moore color in Sherwin Williams Duration. The source that set her first visual benchmark for that color was a regular-size, ink on paper, paint chip. She hadn't seen that color in or on another house.

2. We're not talking about any extenuating circumstances here with paint or color. It's not an uber shee-shee final finish paint base like from Fine Paints or F&B, and she's not looking at complex color like C2 or a full spectrum.

3. Color benchmark that's been set by the color information she's been exposed to about that color deployed on structure to this point is normal and limited. (she's just seen a chip). Developing her expectations about what a "color match" means is easy. That is low hangin' fruit for a color consultant. (No offense lotta. I don't think you're a fruit, it's just a figure of speech)

4. Lotta mentioned an awareness, a desire, to make sure that the vibe and visual she is getting from that chip will translate into her gallons of paint. She's not looking to make sure she likes the color, she wants to make sure she GETS her color.

Reassurance, like from PG, might be all someone needs. As a reminder PG told lotta that "close enough is good enough for most people". She understood what he said. What happened was that her expectations for "color match" relaxed and were now clarified and defined. Anxiety addressed. Thanks to Paintguy she now knows to expect close enough and she's decided to be okay with the parameters of "color match" that PG helped define. She's proceeding down that path. Moon added to the reassurance and has given her some pointers for along the way.

Circling back around to the kooky lady on the Kennon site who says that full spectrum colors can't be "matched" and clarifying further just how that is different from lotta's situation:

Kennon, Citron, C2 and some other brand's color chips are real paint, not ink on paper. They're also bigger than your standard paint chip. These factors set tougher color matching benchmarks, more refined color expectations to deal with and meet. This is one of the BIG things that painter in the story on the Kennon site chose to ignore.

When trying to match regular to full spectrum, it involves differing mentalities, methods, philosophies and processes of mixing color. Lotta is going from Ben to Sherwin. Different paint products, but they are both essentially playing the game of color by the same rules and those rules include black and fewer colorants. Whatever else might be different between the brands, their color philosophy is the same. This is the other BIG thing that the painter in the story on the Kennon site chose to ignore. The Kennon colors use ICI bases and ICI colorants. The painter underestimated just how much color philosophy and mixing technique could matter.

The leap from a Ben Moore color to a Sherwin Williams paint is not a big one from a color matching perspective.

The leap from say, Citron, to Pratt & Lambert or whatever *regular* brand would be a much bigger leap due to many of those technical factors mentioned but ALSO because of color mixing practices.

There is no *dubious practice* to color matching. There is just a lot of confusion surrounding what is fair and reasonable to expect in each unique color matching circumstance. The confusion is compounded by the fact that there is no resource that properly educates the consumer of color on how to buy color. That's because it is complicated, involved, and a whole lot of work to do so and there are not many people who are truly equipped to do it.

As you've found there is all kinds of stuff out there about paint - because that's the easy part - but the information about architectural color, not Color Theory 101, is sparse and is heavily sprinkled with misinformation.

The reason for that confusion, once again, can be attributed to the fact that there is little in color world that is one size fits all.

Just because it may be difficult - almost impossible to match one particular color or finish does not mean that "color matching" will fail 100% of the time nor does it mean that there is no such thing as a "color match".

CalGal, I think I addressed all the really good points you've brought up in your post(s). If not, post away with more. I could talk and talk and talk and talk about color! Maybe I really am a kook. :~D

We just need to be sure that lottamoxie doesn't feel like her thread is being hijacked.


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 06:36 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 06:36 am

RE: Best Way to 'Match' One Paint Brand to Another? (Follow-Up #8)

posted by: funcolors on 05.26.2009 at 02:36 am in Paint Forum

Ok, I'm a little confused and somewhat amused all at the same time. Maybe you just type fast and didn't realize what you're saying, I do that too sometimes. Fingers fly faster than my brain and forget proper grammar and punctuation, ugh.

If we say that color matches fail 100% of the time and in the same post confirm that there is no such thing as a color match, there's a bit of confusion. If there's no such thing as a color match to begin with, then it can't fail.

Color theory is just that, theory. Luckily, color design for the human environment entails more than the chemistry and science of paint. That part, the paint part, is actually the easier part and in the grand scheme the least significant of the whole process.

What is important is how one establishes a baseline for what the word "match" means in terms of color, define what a match means on an individual basis. That color work is part of defining expectations in the process of properly specifying color. Once expectations are established, you move on to identifying tolerances. As in just how acute is the color vision levels that we have to work with. With some folks what will constitute a *good* match is no way near what it would take for others. It all depends and none of it is one-size fits all.

Once the color is up on the substrate, 99 percent of the time it looks different than the customer expected it to look anyway.
If expectations and tolerances are defined and clarified for all involved from the get-go, there are no surprises and everything that's suppose to "match" does indeed match.... that is in the eyes and opinions of those for whom it really is intended to satisfy.


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 06:36 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 06:36 am

RE: Best Way to 'Match' One Paint Brand to Another? (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: funcolors on 05.25.2009 at 03:02 am in Paint Forum

Depends on how you want to define "match". Depends on what *kind* of color you're talking about.

If all you know about the color is coming from the chip or a small sample, then from your perspective a "match" from SW is possible.

If you have experience that has built a visual history by way of seeing the color 3D, in different context, mixed in different brands including its home brand, different sheens, etc. then your expectations would be a lot more sophisticated. You're standards would be higher. You would have a definite sense of what that color is *suppose* to look like. You'd be a tougher color customer.

Using the same brand, the same base, the same colorants, there are many ways to mix to arrive at the very same color. You could hand three separate people the same paint chip and you could feasibly end up with three different color formulas. The whole computer matching business is far, far more over-rated and depended upon than it should be IMHO.

Among those three different colors, you could critique each method, each process of arriving at the color match for that one chip. Which one was the better match to the paint chip would depend on what criteria you want to use. Most commonly the criteria for comparison is a dried out sample of the mix compared to the ink on paper paint chip in a daylight source.

It's not hard to get to that most common point - to get to the make a can match a paint chip point. It's not hard to satisfy that simplistic expectation with most exterior-appropriate colors provided you're using a store with better than adequate resources and you have someone with mixing experience working on your "match".

I think your idea of getting a quart from BM and perhaps painting out a large sized sample from which to work is a good thought. Duration Matte and MoorGard Low-Lustre are actually pretty close in gloss levels; Duration being a snidge *glossier*. That's probably the BenM sheen I'd opt for if I were going to pursue a BenM color match in Duration Matte using an actual paint sample instead of just a chip from BenM.


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 06:35 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 06:35 am

RE: Help needed for warm/cool colors (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: funcolors on 06.03.2009 at 08:33 pm in Paint Forum

Wow, that's a post loaded with all kinds of issues and to top it off, the warm/cool thing is the most challenging part of picking colors -- IMO. Need a big swig of Diet Coke and I'll try to tackle a few the way I look at the warm/cool issue.

Do I pick a cool tan to go with the cabinets or a warm tan to neutralize it all?

A warm tan with cool cabinets (and whatever) is not going to neutralize anything. *Neutralize* is not what happens when you juxtapose warm and cool colors. Warm and cool is a level of color contrast. That means that something is going to happen when they are next to/near each other. You create a color relationship with warm and cool colors and an effect (or is it affect?) of that relationship will fall into becoming a part of the room's atmosphere.

What makes a color warm or cool largely depends on the other colors it is next to, around, among. In a word context. That means you have to look at the colors in situ and decide what's warm and what's cool and determine how to balance the varying color temperatures. THIS is what's hard, IMO. Finding the balance that is wanted with established warm and cool colors.

I really like the tan called "White Sand" but am now second guessing that that is too "cool"

Yeah, that balance thing I was talking about. I'm guessing the White Sand and Cabs harmonize well because they share cool characteristics and they look good next to each other. But you're concerned about how that nice, consistent, cool color relationship is going to spill over into the atmosphere -- will the cumulative effect/affect feel too cool for you.

Tugging the other way on your color sensibilities is to add a warmer tan with the cabs to *counter* some of that coolness of the white and bring a sense of warm/cool balance instead of cool/cool consistent harmony.

I metnioned "challenging", right? :~D

Because it is tough, what you will find out there are all kinds of "rules" about what you're suppose to do with warm and cool. Those aren't rules. Those are personal preferences and various options for designing with color that people confuse for rules or tips and tricks. They understand one way, or read somewhere that's the way to handle warm/cool and then make the mistake of believing it's the *right* way. Not.

I'll list the options and as you can see, some of them will make better sound bites about color than others.

That's the other thing you have to beware of with the peddlers of color wisdom and info, catchy sound bites but no explanation or substance to speak of.

The options not the rules:

Keep it all warm
Keep it all cool
Can mix warm and cool as long as the colors are the same value (light/dark)
Can mix warm and cool as long as the colors are all the same intensity (vivid/dull)
Can mix warm and cool, light and dark, vivid and dull, cats and dogs, as long as you got the skilz to pull it off and the human beings who will live with it have color tolerances to tolerate it.
Other various combinations of the above that I can't think of right now

Ultimately, it can come down to preference and philosophy. My personal philosophy is color balance and balanced color and I try to shove that off on as many people as I can get away with. Reason is I believe that a mix of warm and cool colors creates a more interesting, supportive, and satisfying environment for human beings to thrive. Mom Nature does it this way and it's worked for her so far, but she also has mad color skilz.

All the other options to do the warm/cool thing are easier than trying to find that perfect pitch, that balanced balance like Mom Nature does. I think it's an admirable goal to try to achieve with color. I go thru a lot of Diet Coke and Advil and naps are important.

The room that the kitchen opens to is tan also, but I guess it has more warm colors--chocolate brown rug, light tan sofas, red brick fireplace.

See, ya gotta decide. Keep it easy and go mostly warm and find a way to balance the few pops of cool, like your cabinets, so you're happy or get your color maven on and work it out balancing warm and cool from one end of the house to the other.

Another question-Do I try to match the trim/beadboard on other side of the room to the cabinets or should I go with just a pure white?

If you like the white of your cabinets, just go with that. No need to add another level of color choice/challenge to deal with. Strike consistency with the white elements so you have more bandwidth to deal with the other issues.

Should I stay on the cool side or warm side for colors?

You get to pick what you want and how much work, challenge you're up for. You do have options.

I would like this to be uniform throughout the house (it all needs to be re-painted) The other rooms vary in color from grey/tans, dark browns, yellows, and greens. how do I match it to all?

If you matched it all it would be boring and flat. Somewhere in there you're going to have to determine the ratios and balances of warm and cool that you really want and that looks good room to room, light exposure to light exposure.

I would be looking at full spectrum or multi pigment colors because of their ability to morph and mesh with other colors in the space and their interactive nature with light. Comes in handy when, if like me, a nice mix of warm and cool is the goal.


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 06:34 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 06:35 am

RE: Need a neutral colored paint to go with golden oak trim (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: funcolors on 06.07.2009 at 07:18 pm in Paint Forum

I'll give you my Golden Oak spiel. :) When you look at oak the thing that stands out no matter which kind of oak it is, brown, orange or golden, there is the grain. Heavy, dramatic grain.

Often the color focus is on the color of the oak, brown, orange or golden. One option is to shift focus to the grain. If you can get a wall color to harmonize with the lesser real estate of the oak which is the grain, it's likely going to harmonize with the main stain color.

It's a different approach that opens up new color thoughts and considerations about oak trim and cabinets. Often folks who have oak, feel like they are stuck with a narrow band of wall color choices because they exclusively look at the bigger part of the oak which is the stain color and not so much the smaller portion, the darker grained areas.

There's a color from Ellen Kennon called Powdered Pebbles. It is a taupe color. Now, a standard color belief is that you can not put a taupe with an oak. Powdered Pebbles was born out of flipping the focus to the lesser real estate of oak which is the grain. Powdered P. *came from* the colors in oak graining.

As always, nothing in color world is one size fits all, but Powdered Pebbles' provenance (as they say) is directly related to an oak experience and it is an option to consider for similar oak situations. It might be worth grabbing a large chip from Ellen to see what you think.

A *traditional* color option for oak to snag from Ben Moore might be Powell Buff HC-35.

Here is a link that might be useful: Powdered Pebbles


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 06:34 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 06:34 am

RE: Wall colors and lighting, are there any tricks? (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: funcolors on 06.09.2009 at 01:23 am in Home Decorating Forum

There have been some doozie color questions around here lately. Doozie, I say. It's like GW is the hosting vortex for the shifting color consciousness of all humanity. (I got my drama queen goin' on tonight) :~D

Most of the time the problem is they become too yellowish or just too intense.
One thing I am going to try is changing the light bulbs to "true-color" type of bulb where possible.

About the yellow thing. Incandescent a.k.a. tungsten a.k.a. regular light bulbs do slant yellow or golden. But a bulb that tosses yellow light is not where the story starts or ends. There's more and I'll keep it short.

Your eyeballs have an uneven distribution of red, green, and blue cones. The color we perceive as *yellow* tickles the red + green cones so yellow affects a big chunky piece of the color receptors in your eyeballs. The visual reaction to yellow color/yellow light is bigger, more robust compared to other colors. The red, green, and blue (RGB) color system that your eyes function *from* creates what they call a warm bias in human color perception. It's also why it feels like the more wall area a yellow paint color covers it grows more intense exponentially.

Your eyeballs have a bias to yellow and warm colors in general and so do your light bulbs. Some people have a greater sensitity to that combined bias than others. It all depends, but generally speaking this is where "too much yellow" can come from in paint colors. It's also why graphic designers and website designers are very mindful of how, when, and where to use yellow -- graphic design is mostly to blame for how I've come to understand all this useless crap about color and eyeballs.

The neodymium light blubs, like GE Reveal, changes things up in the quality of atmosphere in that they do not illuminate with the same kind of warm itensity like *normal*, tungsten light bulbs so the bias of yellow that exists, is ratcheted back so it's not so darn yellow and warm.

Are there any other tricks out there? Are certain colors more susceptible to light changes than other colors?

So now that you know what the problem is and where it comes from, you can explore options to deal with it. Intuitively you already came up with one option and that's first try different kinds of light bulbs and see what happens.

Another is full spectrum or multi-pigmented paint colors. The advantage of FS and MP paints has been beat to death more times then I ever could have imagined on this forum. I don't have the energies to *go there* again but, truly, full spectrum paint could be a solution for you. FS and MP would, in a nutshell, be exactly what you asked, "Are certain colors more susceptible to light changes than other colors?". Answer is yes there are paint colors like that and they are called full spectrum and multi-pigmented. Brands like Citron, Donald Kaufmann, Ellen Kennon and C2.

There are also some *regular* paint colors that are more susceptible to light changes than others. The average color collection consists of over 3,000 colors. Fishing them out, discovering which paint colors shift and change gracefully is like finding a needle in a haystack. The brands that exlusively philosophize color from a "shifting" point of view simplifies color options for the consumers of color.

Hope that helps some.


clipped on: 06.10.2009 at 06:30 am    last updated on: 06.10.2009 at 06:30 am