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RE: Can't decide...Wolf or GE Monogram? (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: alku05 on 10.30.2006 at 09:38 pm in Appliances Forum

The Monogram rangetop is made by DCS, and is a good alternative to Wolf, especially if you're watching costs. Same with the monogram oven (make sure you get the new one with roller-racks, the ZET1 I think). We personally are going with the Bluestar rangetop and Fisher & Paykel wall ovens, but the monograms were a close second. We also have F&P dish drawers planned as well.

You can check out the laundry forum for washer and dryer recommendations. Besides the Fisher & Paykel washer and dryer that we have (and love) I don't know much about washer and dryers.


clipped on: 11.07.2006 at 08:05 pm    last updated on: 11.07.2006 at 08:05 pm

RE: What do you put in your refrigerator drawers? (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: lascatx on 11.01.2006 at 11:14 pm in Appliances Forum

Ours will not be in the kitchen -- they will be in the breakfast room. We plan to keep milk, juice, yogurt, and fruit in the top drawer and other drinks -- possibly some of my whole grains for baking, in the lower drawer. If we have a big party, we might switch things so that other beverages are on top for a while.

I think the best way to decide what to put in them is to look at the location and decide what will be used there and make the easiest traffic flow. What will you use most in or nearest that spot? It could be produce, drinks and snacks, all your cooking condiments. Which reminds me -- we should probably count on having a bottle of ketchup in the top drawer of ours. ; )


clipped on: 11.07.2006 at 08:02 pm    last updated on: 11.07.2006 at 08:02 pm

RE: Need a vent hood for BlueStar (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: doubleshot on 11.07.2006 at 01:40 pm in Appliances Forum

I have a 36" BS, but plan to put an induction unit beside it, so the overall vent size had to increase.

I bought a 54" Broan Rangemaster Hood with a 1200cfm fan. I'd have to look up the exact cost (part of a larger order) but it was between 1200 and 1300 total. Ducting will be more, but not much for us, as we planned for a very short run out the back. I didn't buy any inside chimney for it, but it was not that expensive to do so (compared to other brands).

The same dealer had quoted us for a much smaller vent-a-hood motor and hood of around 2400-2500. I am not entirely sure that included much if any chimney soffits. I think I started adding up the "goodies" involved, and while it was a beautiful hood, I was getting close to 3K. And for a 54", well... I wasn't interested in paying that much at all. Likely to have equalled what I paid for the Bluestar.

The Broan is nice looking, but simple lines, has a bigger fan, great price. I have included a link I found at THS for buying them online at Kitchen Source (a bit more than what I paid, plus I had no shipping because we picked it up).

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen Source link to Rangemaster fans


clipped on: 11.07.2006 at 07:54 pm    last updated on: 11.07.2006 at 07:54 pm

RE: Need a vent hood for BlueStar (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: johnzane on 11.07.2006 at 03:49 am in Appliances Forum

You'd do well to Google kitchen vent hoods. You'll find the most popular brand is Vent-a-Hood. A lot of range sellers and wok wizards recommend it for ease of cleaning. You can find them on Ebay, often for much less than retail, even when brand new. I won a NIB 36" wide 18" high new model with rounded front edges, retail $1500, for $200 with shipping. Of course, I'm taking a chance it might not be perfect (from the pictures, it looked okay), but at that price, I can probably live with less.

BTW, if you tend to fill your kitchen with clouds of steam and grease, get the biggest and tallest hood possible. Besides the mess it makes on your cabinets and dishes, this kind of pollution eventually makes it's way to the rest of the house, resulting in pungent carpets and furniture, and eventually, your wardrobe.


clipped on: 11.07.2006 at 07:52 pm    last updated on: 11.07.2006 at 07:53 pm

RE: Need a vent hood for BlueStar (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: cloud_swift on 08.27.2006 at 07:55 pm in Appliances Forum

We are getting the 36" Bluestar cooktop also 6 burners and will be on an island. We have decided on the Sante Fe Island from Independent Co. Normally it would be a bit above your budget number, but Independent is running a promotion where the 1200 CFM motor is included so the local dealer quoted us $2050 for the 42". I haven't seen that model in person yet (dealers don't seem to stock many of the island models) but they had a wall mount hood from Independent and it was very well made - better than most of the other hoods with a heavy guage of stainless, nice finish and seamless construction. The island model of the Sante Fe has two sets of filters (twice what is shown on the underside picture on the website) so there is plenty of capture area.

Another one we considered was the GE Monogram 42" High Performance Island Hood ZV1050SFSS which would be about $1700.

Before we decided on the Bluestar and before we discovered a joist situation that makes a better choice for us, we were considering the Faber Isola which was $1900 but it is only 36" wide and it is 600 CFM.

The other ones all worked out to more than $2500. One has to be careful pricing them out since sometimes the duct cover and motor are extra.

Here is a link that might be useful: independent hood site


clipped on: 11.07.2006 at 07:52 pm    last updated on: 11.07.2006 at 07:52 pm

RE: Capital gas ranges, anyone? (Follow-Up #37)

posted by: jewelly on 10.10.2006 at 07:23 pm in Appliances Forum

mr knickerbocker, you can see Bluestar, Viking and Capital (along with Wolf, DCS, Jade, FiveStar, Thermador, Bosch, GE, etc.) at Gringer & Sons at 29 1st Avenue between 1st and 2nd Streets in Manhattan ( I felt no pressure to buy any one over the others. Are you also deciding between the three? What are your thoughts?


clipped on: 11.07.2006 at 07:30 pm    last updated on: 11.07.2006 at 07:31 pm

RE: Bluestar 23 (Follow-Up #20)

posted by: ellene613 on 10.19.2006 at 11:29 am in Appliances Forum

I do have 24" and 30" painted ranges on order, to be delivered December 18th -- the dealer told me we have "the oldest standing order in the store" -- yikes! Color is RAL #5022, a dark navy blue. we also liked a slightly brighter deep blue, RAL #5002, but it clashed with the granite we hope to use. I was able to get a color fan from IFS coatings -- it's their paint on the ranges. Prizer says they're getting a lot of orders for colored ranges, including one in the color we specced. Note that not all of the available colors are shown on the Eurostoves site.

Anyway, we have taken the first step in our remodel: having 2 baseboard heaters removed, and next week are getting a bid for having a wall taken out in our slow-motion remodel. If we get the wallwork done in a timely fashion, maybe we'll be ready for the ranges when they come.


clipped on: 11.07.2006 at 04:29 pm    last updated on: 11.07.2006 at 04:29 pm

RE: Bluestar 23 (Follow-Up #13)

posted by: cpovey on 10.18.2006 at 09:14 am in Appliances Forum

I recall opening my fuel bill one month with PSA newsletter and reading shocking stats on toddlers opening oven doors to stand on them, bringing down the whole unit down...

Most ranges are now required to be tethered to the wall to prevnt tipping n this situation. Bluestar ranges (except possibly the 24"???) are heavy enough to not require this. I have the letter from them for the inspector stating this.

This wasn't very scientific, and the cook was worried about burning the dinner so the temps were lower than they should have been, but the pizza crust cooked in the F&P was definitely "crispier" (or drier as some described it) while the BS was "chewier" (or moister).

Yep, the difference between gas and electric heat. Burning gas produces water vapor which makes for a tougher crust. Great for roasts and most breads, not so good for cakes. Your choice for pizza!

Now I'm told we're not suppost to use such a big sheet in a small oven, so consider it an experiment.

I don't understand. I have used a full-size sheet pan many times in my oven with no problems. In fact, one lives in the oven pretty much full time, to catch spills.


clipped on: 11.07.2006 at 04:28 pm    last updated on: 11.07.2006 at 04:28 pm

RE: Bluestar 23 (Follow-Up #19)

posted by: mewton on 10.19.2006 at 11:02 am in Appliances Forum

Someone posted this in the past and I made sure I saved it so I can switch my burners around in the future when I install my range. Not sure I'll even want to but I think I'll be moving my 22k burner in the back to the front. I've never done this and wouldn't do it if your not sure what your doing but the description sounds right for a gas line.
The burner swap is not that difficult at all.
Just be careful of sharp sheet metal edges as the burner tubes go through the sheet metal.
There are two things that you want to get right when you swith the burners around. First, make certain that you have moved the correct burner (there are three kinds on a Bluestar) to the location you want. SAecondly make certain you switch the orifice that corresponded to the burner you move along with it.
Do two at a time and keep track of what you are doing. The difference in the orifice size between the 18K and 22K burners is not that great in terms of the whole diameter, so once again, keep track of what you are doing.
The orifice, by the way, is the brass piece that the burner tube sort of plugs into. They unscrew with the right size socket wrench pretty easily. Don't be crossthreading anything now. Be patient and wear leather gloves around the sharp sheetmetal to protect your hands.


clipped on: 11.07.2006 at 04:27 pm    last updated on: 11.07.2006 at 04:27 pm

Gaggenau Appliance Test Drive Report - Long

posted by: beaverlake on 04.03.2006 at 03:47 pm in Appliances Forum

With many thanks to the local Gaggenau (Bosch,Thermador) distributor I had the opportunity to test drive the following Gaggenau appliances last week. The context is the kitchen in a new home. We have the luxury of having 60-70" of counter space for cooking surfaces, plenty of wall space for ovens and refrigerators, and access to both gas and electric. I started this test with a predjudice in favor of induction and an interest in the steam oven - and the need/desire for a grill (not a grill pan). Since we plan to mix various types of cooking "engines" I ended up thinking "modules" - which pretty much means Gagg, Meile, or Wolf. We chose to pursue Gagg because of the Teppan Yaki plate, the high powered induction (although spendy), the steam oven, and past positive experience with Gagg.

Units Tested: the latest models of the following -

27" Oven - rotisserie, pizza stone, finishing seard meat
Convection/Steam combi oven - short ribs, reheat pasta, bread, cookies
Induction - boil water, simmer, stir fry
Teppan Yaki - boil water, simmer, searing lamb rack, chicken breasts, salmon
Gas cooktop - simmer

Short form:
1. Gagg gas burners need a better simmer design
2. The steam/convection oven is larger than you think and is, IMHO, worth the price and is a good choice for a second oven (could be a first for some)
3. Induction - it's the bomb, but IMHO Gagg needs to get their pricing more in line. Their unit DOES offer some advantages: full adjustment from simmer to sear, takes up to 11" pans w/auto adjust, has residual heat indicator, looks great. Cooking permformance was excellent.
4. Ovens - as good as the comments on the forum have indicated. Really like the rotisserie and the pizza stone with embedded element.
5. Teppan yaki plate - versatile option, good looking, a bit spendy but on the buy list.

Some final comments/caveats listed at the end of the post.

Simple things first:
1. Gas cooktop - considered a Vario 400 series as an option for one of the modules. No longer a consideration. The simmer setting uses just a small, "finger sized" center burner. I had a thick tomato sauce in a Staub cast-iron pot and at the lowest setting the heat pattern produced a small boil in the center of the pot. The heat was too concentrated. Too bad since the general performance of the unit was good and the SS is high quality.

2. Convection oven:
Rotisserie - did a small marinated pork roast. Figuring out the icons on the control took some doing the first time out, but I didn't read the manuals for anything and once I was told which icon was correct all was okay. Selected the convection broil setting and turned on the rotisserie. With so much cooking going on I was more than a bit sloppy about watching everything. When I remembered the roast I figured it was overdone. Then I was taught a new use for the temp probe in the oven (obviously you can't use it on a spinning piece of meat). At the suggestion of the rep, I plugged in the probe, pushed it into the roast and pushed the probe button - in about 10 sec it showed the temp - Handy! It also showed I had overcooked the roast (it was at 167 before resting). The good news - rotisserie cooking produces good results even when the cook isn't paying attention. After sitting for about 10 minutes the roast was still juicy with a nice carmelized exterior. Interestingly, clean up was simple since the unit has an oven pan underneath and the heavy enamel made clean up easy. Home-made could be as convenient as Costco for chicken...

Pizza stone with integrated heating element: I had to use frozen Rhodes bread since I didn't have time the night before to make my own dough. I had very low expectations given the dough and the amount of time I had to work it. I made a simple pizza margahrita with a not-too-thin crust and preheated the stone for about 10 minutes at 450 (probably should have listened to the repa and set it for 400 or 410). I used my wooden pizza peel with some yellow cornmeal on the peel to slide the dough off easier. Much to my surprise the pizza came out wonderful. The crust was baked through, the bottom was a chewy-crisp yellow-gold and the cheese was melted and just browning. The rep acutally removed the pizza - I would have left it in another minute or two. But the results were impressive. I usually use a consumer-style pizza stone in a very hot oven with good results, but having the heating element embedded in the stone clearly produces better results. I'm sold on this option even if it is expensive. If you make a lot of pizza or bread (see comments on combi oven) this option is worth it.

Finishing Seared Meat - no surprise here, the oven lived up to its reputation for consistent heat.

Induction - single unit, pots up to 11", settings 1-12
For anyone still on the fence regarding induction, jump. I brought a huge pot of water to boil for pasta in less than 10 minutes (sorry, didn't measure the amount of water, but it's a commercial-sized pot with a pasta insert). Not only was it fast, but the rolling boil clearly came from the entire bottom of the pan, not just a part of it (I've seen this phenomenon on some gas cooktops where the flames don't heat the bottom evenly - flame pattern, drafts/airflow, etc.). When I turned the power down to avoid boil-over the change was instant. I put the Staub pot with tomato sauce on the unit now turned down to 2 and then varied it and the sauce "just sat there" at temperatures varying from 130 to 160 depending on the setting (I had waited to let some/most of the residual heat in the glass dissipate). Amazing simmer control. Later I stir-fired some veggies in a Costo-purchased Nordic-ware flat-bottomed wok. I turned the unit up to 12, turned away to get my oil and the prepped veggies, then checked the surface temp with my infrared thermometer (yes, I'm a kitchen gadget geek). The induction unit was already cycling on an off since in less than two minutes the surface temp of the pan was over 500 degrees. The veggies cooked up with no trace of the liquid extraction/steaming that can happen when there is not enough reserve heat to keep the temp up. In fact, I had to turn the temp down a notch. I even tempted fate by pouring in a few ounces of wine (I was testing the gear, not cooking for taste) and the wine boiled off in about 15-20 seconds. Amazing. The unit is somewhat unique when considering the output range (keep warm - simmer - blazing heat).

Teppan Yaki
For those of you who haven't seen this in person or on the web site, this unit shares characteristics of both a griddle and a "plancha" (?) that's on some of the high-end french ranges (not to be confused with a french top). Unlike most griddles, this unit is a very thick slab of hard-chrome-plated stainless steel - the chrome plating makes quite a difference. It can be cut on with virtually no damage - I chopped up some shrimp "Benny Hana" style to prove it. The rim is sealed so liquid cannot drain through around the edges making clean up very easy. After all my cooking we left the temp at about 300 and took a lemon juice-water mixture and "deglazed" the top. We then scraped the bits with one of the included spatulas and used kitchen tongs with a costco bar towel to wipe up the remaining liquid. Overall it took about 5 minutes and the unit looked good as new. This unit has a large thermal mass and provides a very steady heat. I did all the cooking with both elements turned on and set to 300 degrees. There are two control knobs, one for "front/rear/both" and one for temp. The temp control only controls the "active" element, or both - you can't set different temperature for front and rear. I flattened two chicken breasts to about 1/2 inch, seasoned with salt, pepper, olive oil and little italian seasoning, then cooked/seared each side for about 2 minutes, drizzling some fresh lemon on the meat while cooking the second side. Both sides were done with a nice uniform golden brown carmelization and they were not overcooked. It was all too easy. Same with the salmon filet (about 1 lb, thick end). I couldn't find any salmon steaks, and I probably should have used the combi oven to steam the filet, but I thought I'd try the teppan yaki. I had seasoned the salmon with salt, pepper, and dill, then rubbed wit olive oil. I cooked the skin side first. Using a metal spatula, the skin came up easy and I flipped the salmon to complete the cooking. Again, no surprises since the plate has a large thermal mass and two x 1500 watt elements. I'm not a big fan of griddles, but this unit has the mass, surface area, and heating reserve (3Kw total) so it can be used in a variety of ways - searing plate, griddle, or french top. This will stay on the "buy" list. Great temperature control, consistent heat output, and it looks great after repeated use.

Steam-Convection combi oven
Having read a number of recent posts I was really intersted in this unit. My first dish was pork baby back ribs I had marinated overnight in beer, garlic, salt and pepper. I cooked them 75 minutes, 310 degrees, 100% humidity. After resting for about 5 minutes I went to cut the ribs and the bones just pulled out. Tender, moist, flavorful. I then baked some cookies (Rocky Mountain pre-made dough; peanut butter chocolate chip), 350 degrees, 30% humidity, can't remember how long - but I took them out when the tops were golden brown and crusty and it was under 10 minutes. The centers stayed moist and chewy even the next day. Very quick, very nice combo of crispy/chewy. Took some leftover Rhodes bread dough, pinched it into three "rolls" and baked at 350, 0% humidity. After 10 minutes, then every 5 minutes or so, "injected" steam using a button that shoots some cold water into the bottom of the oven. This "steam injection" created a tasty chewey thick crust on three lumps of what had been "cheap" frozen bread dough. Finally - left the penne pasta I had boiled on the induction unit sitting in the colander for about 2 hours and thought I'd challenge the steam oven. I spread out the now partially dried, stuck-together lump of pasta on a 1/2 sheet pan (they fit) and put the whole thing in the combi-oven for 5 minutes at 220 degrees and 100% humidity. The pasta came back to life in it's al dente form. Once again, amazing. I also like the fact that you can use standard 1/2 sheet pans by sliding them in on the TOP of the ovens rack glides. Same goes for other standard sized commercial pans (check to make sure) - you can save some $$$ and have a lot of pans. Plumbing and drain add to convenience (and, of course, total installed cost).

1. Obviously Gagg equipment is not for the financially faint of heart.
2. Make sure you have 240v to the teppan yaki. We had 208v at the showroom and it showed in heat-up time and temps. As a result, I didn't "test" the fact that this unit has two elements (front/rear) with some "combo" useage. This is a device that needs 10-15+ minutes to preheat. No surprise given the thermal mass.
3. The induction unit prooves that this type of "engine" is an incredible tool. I'd love to have one of the gagg units and I'd also like to have a 2-"burner" unit as well. But Gagg (like Kupersbusch) has to be more competitive on price and gagg needs to offer other configs. I'm sure others like me will pay some level of premium for aesthetics, but when you can purchase both a 24" and a 12" Diva unit (neither one a price leader) for the same list price as the gagg induction unit - well, you get the idea. Great features, great performance, on the spendy side IMHO.
4. Steam/convection oven. Larger than it seems - actully much larger, but costly. Needs a drain and a water hookup. Lightning fast preheat. Takes a half-sheet pan so it's deeper than it appears (its easy to assume microwave depth because of the narrow front).
5. 27" Ovens - took in a 17" square piece of pizza cardboard from Costco tae-n-bake. It fit in the oven of a free-standing Bosch range, it fit in the non-convection Thermador oven. However, it needed to be folded back about 2" for the Thermador convection oven and about 3" for the Gagg. In otherwords, you give up oven depth for convection capability. Not a revelation, but a reminder to those like myself who thought he couldn't live without a 30" oven and a reminder to test oven size based on your cookware/bakeware (i.e., if you don't buy take-n-bake pizza from costco does it matter if the rack is 17, 16, 0r 15 inches deep?).

Overall a productive day for me. Once again, my thanks to the local distibutor. We'll purchase the combi oven, the Gagg electric grill (didn't test, not on display), and the teppan yaki plate. Jury is out on gagg induction because of a) cost and b) only a single "burner" but would buy if performance was main (only?) criteria with aesthetics second. Will probably purchase the oven(s) as well although may go Meile if we can sort out whether or not their baking stone has an integrated element (same for Wolf, but very a distant third).

Hope this helps some of you. Email me directly if you have questions/comments that aren't geared to posting or if you'd rather call with questions.



clipped on: 11.06.2006 at 03:26 pm    last updated on: 11.06.2006 at 03:26 pm

RE: Gaggenau Steam Oven vs. Miele (again) (Follow-Up #15)

posted by: mindstorm on 03.08.2006 at 09:44 pm in Appliances Forum

I second just about every point jdayne has made. I love the Miele appliances I have, and based on the research I did on ovens, the Gaggenau ovens are really quite a cut above the others - Miele included. That said, Gaggenau's BSH and their service protocols are a nightmare of the first water - at least in Massachusetts. I have first hand experience with them. Jdayne, we finally hit paydirt when we requested service from the company we purchased from - Yale Electric. Their service guy was far more technically inclined than the chumps we got from the first companies BSH directed us to, and even including the service tech from BSH itself. The Yale chap effected a real diagnostics effort and our problem which was really quite a simple parameter adjustment but that I didn't have the mechanism to measure, was solved by the time he left. That was quite a treat.

Anyhow, bottom line, seems to me that while the Gagg products are truly excellent - or rather: their ovens and their hood which are the two commodities I have direct experience with - it is their service question (in Mass) that really leaves them wanting. Miele with its fine products and excellent service leaves a very good overall impression.


clipped on: 11.06.2006 at 03:13 pm    last updated on: 11.06.2006 at 03:13 pm

RE: Gaggenau Steam Oven vs. Miele (again) (Follow-Up #14)

posted by: bolt5 on 03.08.2006 at 08:04 pm in Appliances Forum

I agree with jdayne...I have the steam/combi and there is no way that you can clog the drain unless you physically shove something through the drain. As far as the install, we have to retro fit a wall cabinet going from a 30" gas with microwave on top to the combi with a 27" conv oven below. The plumbing at first was a problem in as much as we could not get a plumber interested in doing the job. Suffice it to say my husband and father-in-law did it themselves and according to the Gagg regional sales manager (who came to my home) they did a real good job. I have been able to call the showroom where we went for the demo and any questions I had were answered satisfactorily. Lastly, the customer service was the best for me. My conv. oven's top rack was very tight to remove/replace that it was scratching the porcelain. Service rep came, filed the report and I received a call the next day, asked a few questions, faxed copy of purchase/install, was told I would receive a new oven 7-10 days. One week later oven was in and they came uninstalled/installed new oven. Couldn't be happier.
I would like to know what showroom Chip went to that they demonstrated both Miele and Gaggenau. I was contemplating dishwashers from both lines (gagg mainly for cust service reasons) and it would save me a trip to the two different showrooms in NJ and PA.


clipped on: 11.06.2006 at 03:13 pm    last updated on: 11.06.2006 at 03:13 pm

RE: Gaggenau Steam Oven vs. Miele (again) (Follow-Up #13)

posted by: jdayne on 03.08.2006 at 04:01 pm in Appliances Forum

Chip has a fascinating tale! The Miele showroom in Wellesley MA recommended I consider the Gaggenau steam oven back in 2002 when we were rehabbing. The associate said that, while she loved the Miele, it was something of a hassle to add water and, more to the point, to clean up ("an 8+ paper towel job"). The Miele has the functionality of a pan with a steamer insert on your stove. The Gaggenau is a 100% dry to 100% steam oven. However, you do have to be doing original or extensive rehab construction for the plumbing.

My opinion: there is, flatly, no way you could clog the Gaggenau steam oven shy of major misuse. Just no way.

However, we also are big, big fans of Miele having 5 Miele appliances (dishwasher, gas hob, hood, dryer and vac) and will be purchasing both Miele and Gaggenau again for a new project.

Miele has far and away superior service to Gaggenau. We have had to use both in the last three years and, ironically, need both right now. Miele connects you directly with a tech person who can walk through diagnostics then, if a service call is warrented, gets right back to you with a schedule. Then they send out a competent technician.

Gaggenau has you talk to some technically ignorant scheduler who hardly can grasp the problem, she schedules the call then and you get a totally ignorant service guy in your home messing around with your +++$$$S appliance! At least that is our experience. I would never purchase another Gaggenau product if they broke down with any frequency.

What I am trying to figure out is, now that we have sophistocated appliances with electronics and need high-end, well educated, problem solving service technicians (unlike the old basic stove days) why is it Gaggenau/BSH seems to have some of the least educated service providers in the developed world here at work in the USA?


clipped on: 11.06.2006 at 03:12 pm    last updated on: 11.06.2006 at 03:12 pm

RE: Gaggenau Steam Oven vs. Miele (again) (Follow-Up #12)

posted by: chipcocurtis on 03.02.2006 at 09:36 pm in Appliances Forum

I went by the appliance showroom today to check out the Miele washer/drier washing a dog mat with my Golden's hair all over it (worked pretty well), and to participate in a lunchtime cooking class while I waited. The chef knew I was coming (and knew I try out as much stuff as I can), so prepared part of the steamed jasmine rice in the Gagg steam oven, and part in the Miele steam oven. Then she had me sample. I was surprised there was a difference in texture (the Gagg was gummy) and taste (the Miele tasted better). The Miele takes 20 minutes vs 25 minutes. She says this is typical and that she always uses more sauce with the Gagg rice, and only uses the Gagg when she specifically does Gagg demos. She also reiterated the bit about the clogged drain.

The capacities are identical. I took the trays from one and it fit in the other (and vice versa).

I guess I am the kind that drives the appliance people crazy.

I am only reporting; have no specific loyalty to Miele. I think what we are all going through is how to get the most out of the kitchen with the least amount of appliances. One good oven is a must. Most people want a second oven as backup, but that can be combined with either a steam oven or microwave. For me, I "must have" a steam oven because of my eating preferences, and I want a microwave for heating liquids. So my preference is to combine the second oven with the microwave (also because of the microwave boost in baking). Others may skip the microwave and just go with the steam oven/convection or also get a spacesaver microwave only for $200.

This all remind me of a brief viewing I had of a PBS "comedy/cooking program, where the husband was going on a rant of why anyone would buy a combination shampoo/conditioner because the combination did neither well...



clipped on: 11.06.2006 at 03:11 pm    last updated on: 11.06.2006 at 03:11 pm

RE: Gaggenau Steam Oven vs. Miele (again) (Follow-Up #9)

posted by: chipcocurtis on 03.01.2006 at 07:18 pm in Appliances Forum

I am not trying to beat the drum for Miele (see my posts on their speed oven); I was open to either. Please excuse me if I repeat what I said earlier:

One of the Chefs (that uses both often) said that she has twice gotten pieces of steamed fish down the drain, and that both times the unit had to be removed from the wall to clear the clog. She also mentioned that because the Gagg opens to the side, people are more likely to be scalded by the steam eascaping when they open the door (important if you have kids). She also liked the Miele's operation and results better. In addition the Miele does not need to be plumbed.

For me, since I do LOTS of steaming and pasta (incredible rice and pasta can be prepared); I was interested in the best steam oven, and opted for a convection microwave as the second oven (not Miele). I also like the fact I can use filtered water and not have to run another line from my undersink filter. And, of course, the Miele steam oven looks better over a Master Chef oven.

But, as I said before, either way, you will get incredible results...


clipped on: 11.06.2006 at 03:09 pm    last updated on: 11.06.2006 at 03:09 pm

RE: Bluestar Scorched Stainless Steel Backguard (Follow-Up #61)

posted by: rococogurl on 08.05.2006 at 10:35 am in Appliances Forum

Here's a pro range installation by Mick DiGiulio, who's a top KD in Chicago. I think it's really smart. Note the stainless lengths of counter to each side of the range, the niche, and the offset cabinets.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Here's a Clive Christian install on an Aga, another smart way to go IMO. The niche has the tile liner and perhaps you can see the range is on a low plinth.

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There are no musts here and no need to change selections. As someone said, the ranges are approved for home use.

All I'm urging is caution and good sense -- nothing flammable too low, too tight into/over the burners. Stainless can be used for good measure.

I feel both these kitchens are good examples of the right ways to go with powerful ranges.


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RE: Bluestar Scorched Stainless Steel Backguard (Follow-Up #22)

posted by: capecodcook on 08.02.2006 at 04:59 pm in Appliances Forum

Sleepy: I know in this day of on-line everything, it may be old fashioned, but look in your yellow pages for a sheet metal dealer. They can cut and bend your backsplash for you, you get exactly what you want, and there is no shipping charge! We had a couple of stainless sheets, one 30" wide by 36" high and the other 25" by 36" cut for our gas range, that was installed in a corner, for a total of about $50 it seems to me. As you, we went slightly below the range top and underlapped the hood a bit. Had a little lip bent in the corner edge of one piece so there was no gapping. Faxed the guy a drawing and picked them up a couple of days later.


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RE: how are my choices, please advice (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: hokies on 11.03.2006 at 07:40 pm in Appliances Forum

Rhome410, thank you. I checked out Beaverlake's post and am impressed with his detailed info on Monogram.

I thought I was ready to order when my DH told me the 30" DO is too big for our kitchen. He wants to save room for cabinet space so now I am looking at Miele 27" single oven H4780. I am thinking about putting the Gagg 27" steam combi convection oven EB290 on top of the Miele oven. The 36" Monogram side by side refrig will be right next to the ovens. I don't know if this combination will look good since all three appliances have different handles. Anyone out there doing this combination? Do they look good? the other appliances that I am considering is a Miele G2180SF DW and thermador induction cooktop.


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RE: how are my choices, please advice (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: rhome410 on 10.29.2006 at 12:05 am in Appliances Forum

Have you looked at the ZET2 ovens? Or read the posts on them here? (If you haven't, I recommend doing a search at the bottom of the Appliances page...Maybe search for 'Monogram oven Beaverlake.' Beaverlake/Gordon is a member who has purchased one and has been a font of information.) They are new for 2006, and apparently they're not all that easy to find in stores yet. I have seen them, though. More room inside than the 958, plus a concealed lower element, and great racks-- They stay in while you self-clean and are full-extension, like high end drawer slides. I understand from others here that they are a little more than the 958s, but could be worth it. If you use deep or large diameter pans, they may not fit in the 958. When I was first looking at ovens, I ruled out Monograms because of interior size. The new ones, though, are 1 of my top 3 choices. We are still building, and have not made our appliance purchases yet, so can only speak from what I've seen and read. I hope your induction choice is a good one, because that Thermador is on my wish list, too!


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RE: Do you like your Gaggenau convection oven? (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: groschuni on 11.03.2006 at 06:25 pm in Appliances Forum

Our Gaggenau 985 island paradise.

Here's a look at our 985. We really love this oven. It heats quickly, maintains heat effortlessly and gives you great control. I put it in the island to get it out of the way since I didn't have any area where I could put a wall oven. There is a 6" drawer under it that houses all its extra grilles, etc. I fell in love with the design of this thing the first time I saw one. I had no idea it was such a great oven as well, LOL. We found a floor model on sale as well which pushed me over the edge since otherwise I would have considered it too expensive. However, we would buy one again in a NY minute if we had to move. It really is a dream oven. You'll be very happy together.

Here is a link that might be useful: More photos of our kitchen


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RE: speedcok/convection microwaves (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: anna_2006 on 10.31.2006 at 09:07 pm in Appliances Forum

We have ordered the Miele speed cook oven. It is expensive and perhaps that is why many on this forum have opted not to get it, but I have exchanged emails with some forum members who have it and they are happy with it. As a microwave oven, they say that it is VERY powerful and that they must adjust to it. Otherwise, they are happy with it.


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RE: Any Wolf cooktop owners (Follow-Up #12)

posted by: auzzy on 11.02.2006 at 03:42 pm in Appliances Forum

I have the 36 inch Wolf cooktop. I, too, had focused on the BTU and simmer capacities, since I had been using an electric coil cooktop for ages. Turns out the high BTU burners are more than adequate, although they do take longer than the electric coil to get water to boil (I actually read on the Forum where someone tested water boiling and the electric coils were faster). I really like the simmer feature on all the burners. I can fit any size pot/pan on any burner--there is more than enough room with the 5 burner setup. What I don't like--you have to clean the entire cooktop each time you use only one burner because water or grease splashes on the adjacent stainless steel. Also, the SS edge has scratched in several places (don't know why). And the knob section is hard to keep clean. So, I guess the conclusion is that cooking is great, but cleanup is more time consuming.


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RE: Any Wolf cooktop owners (Follow-Up #11)

posted by: gardenchick1 on 11.02.2006 at 08:08 am in Appliances Forum

Capecodcook has very good advice. I had a GE glass cooktop with sealed burners and now have a 36" Wolf rangetop with open burners. The GE was impossible to clean, but I am having no problem with the Wolf. I also like that my Wolf has all 16K BTU burners with a low simmer of 500 BTU. My GE 4-burner had all different burners and I was always shuffling pans around.

FWIW -- with 16,000 BTU I only rarely need the high temp setting unless I am stir-frying or getting a pot of water to boil. I usually cook most things on medium which is plenty sufficient. So if daffodil2green's main concern with the cooktop is BTU output, I would safely say the BTUs it has is sufficient.


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RE: Any Wolf cooktop owners (Follow-Up #9)

posted by: capecodcook on 11.01.2006 at 04:40 pm in Appliances Forum

Gibby: glad the cooktop is less cramped than it looks.

This is a long story. Do a search here on sealed vs unsealed or just unsealed and you will turn up a lot of info. Visit a good Wolf dealer and have them show you. Their dual fuel ranges have sealed burners, the rangetops and all gas ranges have unsealed, although they will be offering sealed in the future as an option.
Essentially unsealed burners look like the classic old gas burners with a burner and a separate removable drip pan underneath. An issue with this configuration is that there is a gap between the burner and the drip pan where boilovers could spill into. Wolf and others solve this with a pullout tray under the burners to catch the spills. Pull it out and wipe up the mess. The drip pans are porcelain; easy to clean and can go into the dish washer.

Sealed burners have the burner screwed solidly, directly onto the top of the range, either stainless steel or glass. No gap, no place for overflows to spill down into, supposedly easier to clean since everything stays up on top and can be easily wiped up. We have had two sealed burner stoves, GE with glass and Roper electric with stainless and found both to be impossible to keep clean. The problem is the burner sits right on top of the range surface and heats the surounding area quite a bit. Stuff grandually burns on around the burner and is very difficult to remove. Doesn't even take a boilover to cause problems. Stuff just gradually builds up and fuses on. We do a lot of sauteing and spatter over a wide area (even with a spatter screen). Unless you are very careful with clean up there will be residue left near other burners with will cook on when that burner is used. This almost dictates cleaning up all durning the cooking process since you will use more than one burner during a meal. Others will tell you sealed burner ranges are very easy to clean. To me a quick wipedown with Windex after cooking is all done is easy and that doesn't get it done with sealed units in my experience. So far with our Wolf rangetop that's all we do and so far the drip pans are clean and shiny. If nothing else if they get too grubby I can toss them out and get new ones. Can't toss out the entire top of a stove with sealed burners! As far as spillovers are concerned unless you are a very messy cook, they are a non-issue-don't happen that often, and 98% of any boilover would go into the burner pan not down inside; you have to look at how they are shaped to understand this. Also once you see the drip pan and how the burner sits above it, you will see why things are less apt to gradually burn onto it. There are other more techincal differences having to do with air flow and flame pattern the dealer can better describe.

This is a short answer to a complicated question. Best to go to a good dealer than can show you the difference. Wolf is ideal since they make both so are not trying to sell you their particular answer.


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RE: Any Wolf cooktop owners (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: capecodcook on 10.31.2006 at 10:15 am in Appliances Forum

I think you or the second dealer are mixing up rangetops and cooktops. The Wolf 36" rangetop has 4 16,000 BTU burners (and a grill or griddle) that all turn down to 500 BTU for simmer. Cooktops usually don't have grills and have mixed size burners. This seems to be what Daffodil is considering. The Monogram and Wolf rangetops are pretty similar (both also make cooktops). You will never notice the difference between 16,000 and 17,000 BTUs. The Wolf will give you the same performance as the Monogram. But you want to make sure you evaluate sealed (GE) vs unsealed (Wolf) burners and the differences in flame patterns between the burners. Wolf's concentric burners put more heat near the center of the pan.

After a four burner range with three different size burners, I find the rangetop concept much better. We were always juggling things around on our old stove which was a pain. Here we just turn things up or down as necessary. And the simmer on our Wolf is much better than the low simmer burner on our old GE stove. Also since all burners are high output, the spaghetti water can go out of the way in back. I think the Wolf cooktop might be a little cramped. The four burners on the left are as close together as on any stove. A 36" rangetop with controls on the front rather than the top spreads thing out a little better...and gives you one more burner.


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RE: Any Wolf cooktop owners (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: gibby3000 on 10.30.2006 at 10:48 pm in Appliances Forum

Daffodil - I have this cooktop and I could not be happier. Your cooking needs sound similar to mine. My kitchen has been done for about 18 months. In retrospect I can say I had WAAAYYYYY more anxiety than I needed to about having enough BTUs on enough burners. It's easy to get caught up in that kind of thing when you do alot of reading here - is mine big enough, nice enough, etc.

This is a very nice cooktop and it more than meets my needs. In real life I just don't need that many burners with that many BTUs and the placement of medium, large and small really doesn't matter to me in day to day use.


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RE: Any Wolf cooktop owners (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: antss on 10.30.2006 at 07:10 pm in Appliances Forum

15,ooo BTU's is plenty of heat output for the majority of home cooks. Do you really need to simmer water that much faster? You should probably get an induction burner then as their equivalent outpu is about twice both these models. Really need the xtra 1-3k btu's for stir frying? Probably should get a dedicated wok burner from Viking or Thermador , they've got in the neighborhood of 30000 BTU's.

All high line cooktops will most likely preform better than the cooks that use them - this is not a slam. If you REALLY require the added preformance of a mega watt high BTU top, you are probably not hanging around here or you already know what is required.

Another thing to keep in mind is you gas delivery system. In remodels it is common for the exsisting gas lines to be too small to accomodate the volume of gas required to run these babies. Now , most will never notice it, they'll work just fine. You will not be able to take advantage of the higher btu's if you line is small and their is other strong demand form say a furnace, water heater, ect.. at the same time.


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RE: Last Chance to Make A Decision! Grill or Griddle?! (Follow-Up #8)

posted by: bens_dad on 10.30.2006 at 09:29 pm in Appliances Forum

Griddle. Griddle. Griddle.

An indoor grill sounds appealing, especially in places where the weather can turn bad during a lot of the year, but no matter how big a fan you install, you will spread cooking smells throughout your house in into your fabrics. Plus, you are really into grilling, you want a cover to control and hold the heat.

A large griddle is amazingly versitile. We're planning to put a 24"-wide Viking gas griddle next to a 36" induction cook top. It is more functional than you think. It's a simmer plate when you are cooking a large meal. It can do a lot of searing, or cook hot dogs and hamburgers. You can treat it like a "horizontal" wok for stir fry. If you are making breakfast for more than 3-4 people, it's great for pancakes, eggs, sausages, and bacon. Think of most of the things you eat in a diner, and they are probably cooked on a griddle and not a grill. Hope this alternative point of view helps.


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RE: Last Chance to Make A Decision! Grill or Griddle?! (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: romarm on 10.30.2006 at 05:14 pm in Appliances Forum

If the yuck factor is an issue, I would definitely go griddle over grill. I previously had a grill and never used it for that very reason. I recently put in a new GE Monogram Pro rangetop and got the griddle. It's not yucky at all and I love using it. It's easy to clean, maintain and use. It's so much fun that I'm constantly trying to find different ideas of things to cook on it.


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RE: Last Chance to Make A Decision! Grill or Griddle?! (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: denise54 on 10.30.2006 at 04:00 pm in Appliances Forum

Definitely the grill. In our last house we had a 48" Viking with four burners, grill and griddle and would not get the griddle again. It gets really yucky. Even though we have a wonderful outdoor grill, the convenience of the indoor grill is worth it. Don't forget to get the correct hood to properly vent it. In our new house, we're considering either a GE Monogram cooktop with grill or a Wolf (both 36"). I'll be interested to see what you do. We're supposed to pick appliances by the end of this week.


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RE: Best non-BlueStar range? (Follow-Up #19)

posted by: alexr on 11.03.2006 at 01:54 am in Appliances Forum

Hi Winchester, not that it matters, since you're getting a sealed DCS anyway, but I still think our driptrays must be different than yours, because like msrevise said, it's huge, it's flat, and our drip trays won't fit in a dishwasher.(just too big). Kinda like a huge cookie sheet.

As msrevise said, the Wolf open burner is practically sealed anyhow,(if that's important to you).I took one apart. Their secret is a round chunk of brass with holes ...too hard to explain. Another nice thing about the Wolf is each burner has 2 supply lines of gas coming to it, a tiny one for simmer, and the regular line. I thought it was very well thought out. I took the top of the stove off just to check it out. Of course I've read nothing but good about DCS sealed burners.

I'm very curious about the Capital line, but haven't seen a one. And they have a new super fancy one on the way as well. They are sealed.

Bluestar may not be for everyone, but I love it. It indeed has very open burners and there is no top to the range, almost the whole thing is composed of cast iron grates.


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RE: Best non-BlueStar range? (Follow-Up #17)

posted by: winchestermystery on 11.02.2006 at 02:06 pm in Appliances Forum

That's interesting to know about the drip pan on the Bluestar. I haven't looked at one. And honestly, I haven't paid that much attention to the Wolf and it's drip situation since I have a DCS on order.

What about little bits of food falling under the drip tray? I have a Jenn-Air with open burners now, and it has a removable drip pan, like you've described, and not only does food get cooked onto it, but bits of food fall under the drip pan that I have to clean out. Yes, the drip pan can go in the dishwasher, but I still have to scub off the baked on oatmeal that slipped under the foil at the open burner, or at the small tear in the foil that I didn't notice, etc. My Jenn-Air comes apart easily for easy cleaning, but it doesn't mean that it's actually easy to clean! LOL! The foil on the slide out/removeable drip pan has still been a pain in my experience.

I did read an article online in which a chef compared the Bluestar, DCS, Dacor, and Viking cooktops. As far as quality and ease of cooking, he liked the Bluestar the best, and the DCS came in second (I wish he had also tried a Wolf). So, one with unsealed, and one with sealed burners did very well with searing, stir frying, etc. If you are a super gourmet cook, the difference between open and sealed burners might be a big deal, but even the chef said the sealed burners on the DCS cooked a steak to restaurant quality. And since my husband is a bread maker, I chose the DCS AG because according to several people I spoke to, the DCS has the best AG convection, and AG convection is the best kind for bread baking.

I have an awful feeling that I'm going to have to return my AG DCS anyway, but I'm hanging in there with the choice until I try it for myself!


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RE: Best non-BlueStar range? (Follow-Up #10)

posted by: alexr on 10.31.2006 at 11:04 pm in Appliances Forum

johnzane did not mention which model he bought. And I went to Airport Appliance in March and saw a floor model of the RCB with a window door. But remember that model doesn't have convection. It also has 4 of the 15K btu burners, which I think are great burners, but it's not the same as the RNB models people have been buying.


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RE: Best non-BlueStar range? (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: johnzane on 10.31.2006 at 07:31 pm in Appliances Forum

Five Star is a cheap imitator, with no catch pan under the open burners, it fails the maintenance test.

Wolf and Viking are obscenely expensive.

Bluestar offers a basic open burner range design, which shouldn't present much of a challenge to an experienced repair-person, plus, it seems the company is motivated to keep customers happy. From a number of posts here, it's said they walk you through troubleshooting, sort of what Apple does with it's iMac computers.

The number one problem on all these stoves seems to be keeping the igniter clean, other than that, it's correct installation (using the correct gas line attachments). Otherwise, there are really no electronic parts (motherboards) to replace, the knobs are mechanical (thank God!), which is an inexpensive fix compared to touchpads and pushbuttons.

If you want to save $800 bucks on a new one, Google Airport Appliance in Hayward, Ca. I just bought mine today for $1795, the latest model with window! At $300 shipping (to East Coast), you're getting a professional stove for less than $2100 (add California state tax if necessary).

Sure beats the $3000 price tag from Eurostoves!

Don't bother with the extended warrantee. If it's going to break down, it will be in the first year of warrantee.



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RE: Best non-BlueStar range? (Follow-Up #4)

posted by: msrevise on 09.25.2006 at 10:39 am in Appliances Forum

Having used both the DCS w/sealed burners and now the Wolf w/semi-open burners, i have to say i have a slight preference for the Wolf. I can use a much higher flame on even my smallest pans w/the open burner design, and the low simmer seems equally efficient on both.


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RE: Best non-BlueStar range? (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: alexr on 09.24.2006 at 10:18 pm in Appliances Forum

I have a Bluestar and would not trade it for anything, but if I liked sealed burners, I'd check out Capital Ranges, a DCS clone that is smaller and may be trying harder.


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RE: Do you like your Gaggenau convection oven? (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: kawfeeaddict on 11.01.2006 at 04:08 pm in Appliances Forum

I too have this oven and LOVE IT!!! I feel I have so much control over my cooking and also love the side opening door. Tonight I'm doing salmon and asparagus.

I'd like to add that where I live the voltage is 208 so I had a buck 'n boost transformer added for the oven to bring the power to 240V. While the transformer was expen$ive on top of the cost of the oven, I wanted an oven that would heat up and sear meat quickly. I read too many stories here of ovens that take too long to preheat or broil.



clipped on: 11.03.2006 at 12:44 pm    last updated on: 11.03.2006 at 12:44 pm

RE: Do you like your Gaggenau convection oven? (Follow-Up #4)

posted by: pamela1 on 11.01.2006 at 04:04 am in Appliances Forum

I am selling my house this week, but one thing I will greatly miss is my Gaggenau 36" oven. I can't say one thing bad about this oven. The controls on the side make it a shallower undercounter oven than any out there. Great rotisserie, great pizza stone (huge), you use the broiler by percentage (cool) and you can use one side of the broiler if you wish.

My new house (like the one I'm leaving) is over 200 years old, and the Gaggenau oven is just too contemporary for the new kitchen. I will buy a Wolf 36" in carbon to make it less visible, but I think deep down I'd rather have the Gaggenau.


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RE: Do you like your Gaggenau convection oven? (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: reepicheep on 10.31.2006 at 07:48 am in Appliances Forum

I have both the gag oven and the steam oven. I find I use the steam oven 90% of the time. (Only two of us). my large gag is wonderful, 4 trays cookies, two chickens rotissire, does rib eye roast with temp probe to perfection. i would get another one in a minute, and the side opening door is great. I am remodeling a 1900 kitchen now and will be putting in the steam oven for sure. i didn't know gag made an under counter one so will look at that. i need a wide one for the old house.


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RE: DCS is replacing my range (Follow-Up #85)

posted by: msrevise on 11.03.2006 at 12:01 am in Appliances Forum

Oh, carp, socal1. I'm sorry you're having this problem. First, call your retailer and tell him you need the name of his regional DCS rep, or the state rep. That's how i got the refund, eventually. If he wants to know why, tell him you're going to pursue the problem directly thru that person. If he won't give it to you, call DCS in california and ask them the name. Tell the DCS rep (if you think this is true) that you don't think they have a fix for the problem yet, you're not willing to wait, and you want a refund (and you can tell them you know others had the same problem and it wasn't fixed). I got the name and number of my state rep (totally by accident--the tech had written it on the service receipt) and bugged him (nicely) thru every phase of the problem. I bet the part they're talking about is the oven burner--the tech who came to my house kept saying the flame was too big. BS, it's a high output burner, it's supposed to be big. So he wanted to change it. DCS tech support hotline said, no that's not the way to fix this. Anyway, sounds like DCS still doesn't know what's wrong. Call their tech support and speak w/Fernando, tell him what's happening and tell him you know you're not the only one. Also 'drop' the name of the state rep you contacted. They'll probably want verification from the service company that they weren't able to fix the problem. I'd call the service company and ask them for the name of the person at DCS who's telling them what to do to fix it (believe me, they don't know what to do themselves), and then call and talk w/that person yourself. (It might be Fernando, in fact.) My guess is they don't know whether there are any parts to fix, either DCS has said they will let them know, or the service tech is stalling until they get more info.

Oh, and the plastic sack w/the papers in it? It was on my kickplate, too. Didn't find out until they removed the range. Yes, it could've caused a fire; it's right next to the $#@#%^ oven burner! And, it was melted. Btw, the last thing you want is for them to stop the oven from venting heat--that makes no sense! What the dang thing needs is more insulation in front, and a cooling fan. If they put you off, i would threaten (nicely, again) to take it to the consumer product safety commission. Please let us know what happens!


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RE: DCS is replacing my range (Follow-Up #84)

posted by: socal1 on 11.02.2006 at 08:14 pm in Appliances Forum

I have the 30" RGT-N and having the exact problems as msrevise and others who reported on this board. During the initial burn off period in preparing the oven as per manual instruction, I realized that the kick plate was extremely hot (I almost burned myself in touching it), and the heating up after oven turned-off as described by msrevise. I thought it was so unusual that it (the kick plate) should get that hot, and because of the odor and tremendous heat output, I was worry that some thing might have burned inside. So I decided to take out the kick plate after cooling to check and make sure everything was ok. When I took out the kick plate, I discovered a small plastic pouch with a piece of paper insert with electrical diagrams attached to the left side of the kick plate had completely melted down.

I called my retailers tech support to report the problem the next day (that was 10/9). He said that it was the 1st time hed ever heard it and suggested that I contact DCS right away to describe what I had just told him. And so I did. I spoke with Steve at DCS tech support and he said that DCS has heard no such complaints or customers report of such problem and said that it was normal to have scorched mark, and outside heat up was just normal for pro-style range. But I insisted that I want someone to take a look because I know if the oven is ever used again that the plastic pouch hanging hazardously inside that kick plate would surely burn up and start a fire. He then proceeded to give me a service company to contact.

The service technician came on 10/13 to check out the problem. He took the temperatures of the outside oven door, kick plate, knobs, bullnose after 10 minutes of heating and said that all the temperatures were way too high. I asked him what would be considered normal temperatures? He took my floor temperature, which registered at 77 degrees at that time and said that it should be like that. I mentioned the plastic pouch inside the kick plate, he took out the plate and ripped it off and said it would burn if left in there. He took down the model and wrote out his reported finding on paper and told me to give him a call the following Tuesday (10/17) after he had a chance to discuss with DCS. I called him on that day and he said DCS will send him the replacement parts but he just could not figure out what parts DCS could send to resolve the problem. Meanwhile, I just have to wait until the parts come in.

Three weeks now have passed in waiting for the parts from DCS. I called my service technician again yesterday. He said that DCS engineers are trying to solve the problem and I just have to wait for the parts. I told him I was curious as what parts if he knows DCS would send and he said to the effect that there are possibly two parts, one to reduce btu output, and another to cover the front venting holes so that heat would not be generating on the outside.

My question now is how long should I have to wait until DCS engineers come up with a solution, if any. And if the solution is to reduce btu output as I have heard from my service technician, would that be acceptable since one of the considerations for selecting the DCS range was the high burners and oven btu output.

While waiting and weighing in these alternatives, I decided to call my retailer, Zoobler Inc. (an internet retailer) to inquire about the possibility of returning the range for a refund because I had paid a hefty price for this range sitting in the kitchen that I can not use. Also, there is no certainty as when DCS would come up with a solution and what if the solution is not satisfactory or fail again, and then I have to go through the whole frustrating process once more.
To my surprise, my retailer told me straight on the phone that I couldnt return the range for a refund because I have it for over three months now. I just have to wait for DCS to fix the problem.

I welcome all your advise as what I should do next, especially those of you who have similar DCS range problem like msrevise, goose1 and podsne1. Please help.


clipped on: 11.03.2006 at 12:35 pm    last updated on: 11.03.2006 at 12:35 pm

RE: DCS is replacing my range (Follow-Up #80)

posted by: sparksals on 10.29.2006 at 01:24 pm in Appliances Forum

Msrevise wrote: Well, here's another possibility the DCS tech came up with --he wonders if my range is set for propane instead of natural gas. Apparently it's as simple as the switch being flipped the wrong way, but it would result in more than twice the heat, potentially, as what i'm supposed to have...

I know your problem is resolved because you got a new range of a different brand. But as soon as I read what you wrote above, I HAD to chime in.

Having a gas range set to propane is VERY dangerous! We built a new home in Flagstaff and had a GE gas range installed. It was an upgrade from the builder's standard model and we were very happy with it.

The only problem we had with it was it took forever to cook everything. I attributed it to Flagstaff's high altitude. Your tech said it could be propane making the range too hot, in our case, it wasn't hot enough.

One day, I had the builder come over to look at a problem with our dishwasher (a GE profile and upgrade from builder standard). The water didn't seem to get hot enough, although the dishes came out clean. Turns out the problem with the d/w was the pipes leading to the water line were plastic, not copper and used by builders as a money saver. OK, no big deal. I would run the hot water in the tap before I ran the d/w. Kind of a pain, but I could live with it.

Then I happened to mention the problem with the range, that it took forever to cook and that there was a hint of a gas smell when it was in operation. The tech lifted the cover under the racks and found the air baffle was set incorrectly to propane instead of gas! Now, most people wouldn't think this is too much of an issue, but for us it was, because it was emitting dangerous levels of carbon monoxide! He had a CO detector and it measured 18 ppm when the normal/safe range is a very small number. Over time, that level of CO would have made us both very sick and could have killed us.

Then everything clicked in for me. The day we got possession of the house, I was excited and turned on the range, fiddled with the controls to see how everything worked. All the windows were closed b/c it was windy outside and there was still construction noise in the area.

That night, I was home alone at our previous home that we hadn't moved out of yet. Suddenly, my heart started pounding profusely and I was afraid I was having a heart attack. I was 39 at the time. Totally freaked out, I called my husband at work and he took me to the ER. With the symptoms, I was taken in right away, tested on an EKG, and some sort of MRI machine to check for a blood clot. All were found to be normal, I wasn't having a heart attack. They couldn't find anything wrong. They did take blood and they checked for routine things they would check for in someone having a heart attack.

Fast forward to the few months later when we found the dangerous level of CO coming out of the range soley because the range was set to propane instead of gas! It could have killed us! I got online and found that my symptoms were consistent with CO poisoning. The hospital didn't check for that because it was summer time and CO is not a common thing as the symptoms can be flu-like or guised as a heart attack.

I went after the builder, GE and the appliance store who installed it. We had over 5K in medical bills because we weren't married at the time, I'm Canadian and didn't have health insurance until after we married. I got the run around for several months because the builder was blaming the appliance store, the appliance store blamed GE and GE blamed everyone else.

In the end, the builder was ultimately responsible because that is who we contracted with to build the house. It took a call to the President of the company b/c the foreman was ignorning my calls. Once the pres got involved, things happened. We had to sign a legal non-disclosure agreement (that our lawyer told us not to sign at first until it was changed, which they did change it). They paid my medical bills and the story ended.

I know this is a long post, but I want everyone to know just how dangerous it can be if the air baffle is not set correctly! I'm surprised the tech who visited msrevise didn't double check the setting because it's as simple as lifting the tray under the racks.

I encourage everyone to ask your installer to double check the setting on your gas range when it is being installed. Most gas ranges are set default to gas and must be changed to propane, but it could have been GE's error in manufacturing or the installer didn't double check it.

Dangerous levels of CO can emit and kill you if it's set incorrectly! ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS get that aspect checked upon install of the gas range! Since it is supposedly defaulted to gas, the installer may not check and the result could kill you.


clipped on: 11.03.2006 at 12:32 pm    last updated on: 11.03.2006 at 12:32 pm

RE: DCS is replacing my range (Follow-Up #71)

posted by: msrevise on 10.25.2006 at 09:46 am in Appliances Forum

podsnel, you can probably use the oven, just make sure people know that the outside is hot. Even with the Wolf, when i was baking bread, i preheated for a very long time and i put a sign on the handle to keep people away. A DF will have more insulation b/c it's self-cleaning, so it's likely you wouldn't have the heat problems. Realize though, that you must have the upgraded electrical connection in that spot for a DF. I didn't go that route, b/c i really wanted a gas oven and infrared broiler. (Not to mention the difference in cost.) Seriously, if you want the gas range, and they can't fix the problem (which i frankly don't think they can), i would consider a different range. The Bluestar is 35 7/8, like the DCS, if you think the Wolf won't fit. You might have a contractor measure, if you're considering a different brand. You might have more space than you think.


clipped on: 11.03.2006 at 12:26 pm    last updated on: 11.03.2006 at 12:27 pm

RE: DCS is replacing my range (Follow-Up #39)

posted by: verysleepy on 08.25.2006 at 04:45 pm in Appliances Forum

msrevise- the person that spoke to us, and showed us around seemed very knowledgable. He is a salesperson there- Mike. He also owns or manages a few restaurants in town, and told us about the daily cleanup at the restaurants. He also recommended kitchen aid dishwashers, which I hadn't even thought of until he mentioned them.


clipped on: 11.03.2006 at 12:07 pm    last updated on: 11.03.2006 at 12:07 pm

RE: DCS is replacing my range (Follow-Up #33)

posted by: lascatx on 08.24.2006 at 11:32 pm in Appliances Forum

Have you had the pressure in your gas line tested? Don't know why that suddenly came to my mind, but when we were at the Thermador showroom, we were smelling some gas while the extra low burner was in the off part of its cycle. We told them that was something that concerned us. They called someone at the national service level who had been in the showroom and was famliar with the set up. He explained that the number and length of the gas lines they have required higher pressure than a residence would have and that it was causing some gas to escape. It was like a litle burp in between the on parts of the cycle.

I'm just wondering if your gas pressure is too high or too low if it could cause the oven to operate differently than it should. A plumber or service tech should be able to check that very easily if they haven't already. Wish I had more to offer.

I understand your situation. Wish I could think of something else.


clipped on: 11.03.2006 at 12:04 pm    last updated on: 11.03.2006 at 12:04 pm

RE: DCS is replacing my range (Follow-Up #32)

posted by: msrevise on 08.24.2006 at 10:36 pm in Appliances Forum

lascatx, i used the convection feature on the range oven tonight, roasted some chicken and green beans. The convection fan resulted in the front of the oven (knobs and bullnose) getting so hot that i really couldn't touch them, even hotter than the "heating up afterward" issue i also have. I don't know if that's normal, but it sure doesn't seem like it should be. I think there's a problem w/the flue--the air just isn't venting as well as it should be. I suppose i could get a drop-in cooktop w/an oven below, but i can't put an oven below a rangetop, which is what i'd want; the cooktops don't have enough room for me to use my large pans. Plus, i was really hoping to keep a gas oven, since my single wall oven is electric (dacor), best of both worlds.

It could be that i'm completely scr*wed. I made myself a little feature comparison chart for the various ranges i'm looking at, and when i got to the spec's, i found out that my DCS is 35 7/8" wide, but the Wolf and the Capital are both 36" and require a space of 36 1/8 to 36 1/4. I have just barely 36 1/8, and in some spots, b/c cabs aren't plumb, it's more like 36 and a hair. That leaves me w/Bluestar and Viking, i believe. After following some of the BS threads, altho i think it's a great product, i think the outside will be too hot for me, and the Viking of course has big service issues, although i could buy it from a local place that will also service it. I really don't know what to do at this point.


clipped on: 11.03.2006 at 12:03 pm    last updated on: 11.03.2006 at 12:03 pm

RE: DCS is replacing my range (Follow-Up #28)

posted by: verysleepy on 08.24.2006 at 01:01 pm in Appliances Forum

Msrevise- I cannot give you advice about the service in regard to Bluestar- as you really need service. Does Eurostove service in the DC area? I would also call Prizer-Painter and ask the questions you have about the service.

We went to the factory in Reading and tried out the Bluestar- it was fabulous.

Msrevise- try to get hold of Ellene, as she can answer all of your questions for you. I do know that you can slide pots from burner to burner. In addition, the drip pan under the burners just pulls out so easily. You just put a piece of aluminum foil on it, and toss. The big burners were great- not because of the big flame- but because of the "star" burner- creating the large area of heat. The burners and grates simply can go into the dishwasher. The simmer burners were terrific too. All burners can be configured to go down to simmer also. I really loved working with it.

But... you have to wait to see what DCS is going to do first.


clipped on: 11.03.2006 at 11:59 am    last updated on: 11.03.2006 at 11:59 am

RE: DCS is replacing my range (Follow-Up #27)

posted by: msrevise on 08.24.2006 at 12:54 pm in Appliances Forum

chazas, Foremost also represents Bluestar (at least they said they did), but they don't have a display model yet. Also, they sell Capital, so if i decide to look at that i'll be going there. When i talked to them on the phone (Clay was very knowledgable), they recommended Wolf or Capital based on what i was looking for. Capital is less money and is most similar to the DCS (probably b/c it was designed by the former owners). Versus the Wolf, I still prefer the features of the DCS, in that it has sealed burners, and the Wolf doesn't, and the door is easy to handle, unlike the door on the Wolf gas, and of course the Wolf is more $$. Everything's a trade-off i guess, but before i decide what to do, i'm definitely going to try out the ones i'm considering.


clipped on: 11.03.2006 at 11:58 am    last updated on: 11.03.2006 at 11:59 am

RE: bluestar (Follow-Up #25)

posted by: msrevise on 08.24.2006 at 09:12 am in Appliances Forum

verysleepy, I just knew someone was going to mention the Bluestar! I've been hesitant about it for a few reasons--one being it seems like service is hard to come by, and having already gone thru that w/DCS i'm 'once burned twice shy'--believe it or not, altho i live in the DC metro area, there was not a single repair place willing to do warranty work on the DCS. DCS has sent someone from more than an hour away, in rural Md. (I have the same concern about the Capital range.)

Second, i really prefer sealed burners for cleaning. Used to have open burners, slid out that tray, oh, once a year (lol), and was always shocked to see the mess. Anyway, I got used to cleaning sealed burners on my last cooktop and for me, it's easier.

Third, the heat--as i mentioned above, the DCS really doesn't get uncomfortably hot to stand in front of while it's turned on, nor does it heat up the cabs on either side (i check constantly b/c i have my spices in there), but w/the Bluestar i'm concerned that the door and the knobs, etc, will heat up more, simply b/c it seems closer in design to a restaurant range.

Now, if i'm wrong about any of that stuff, i'm ready to listen. Tell me this, since i've never seen one in person--do the open burners mean that i can use a higher heat without the flame going up around the sides of the pot (I mean a large pot not a little one)? And can i still slide pots from burner to burner? And do i get a low simmer on every burner (for some reason i thought that was not the case)? I suppose i can check the bluestar threads for more on this, but as i say, i am hesitant b/c of the service availability issue.


clipped on: 11.03.2006 at 11:58 am    last updated on: 11.03.2006 at 11:58 am

RE: DCS is replacing my range (Follow-Up #19)

posted by: msrevise on 08.23.2006 at 10:29 pm in Appliances Forum

abfab, your point is well-taken. My dilemma is this-- If there is a fix for this problem (and i think a cooling fan would do it), i'd like to keep the range. There was a reason why i selected it to start with--it has pretty much everything i wanted. If i have to go back to the drawing board, either the price will go up (Wolf), or i'll be dealing with a relative unknown (Capital). On top of that, the front of this stove doesn't get too hot during the actual cooking, but i'm worried that some of the other gas ranges throw off a lot more heat, even to the cabinets on the sides. Friends have complained about this aspect of the Wolf, for example. I don't want to trade one problem for another that's unsolvable, i guess is what i mean. The other downside of the Wolf is the very heavy door, at least that's a downside for me. Complicating factor is that the retailer i bought from doesn't sell Wolf, so i have to start over w/another retailer, and i'll have to pay for the installation again, and shipping which was free before (i don't think i can expect DCS to cover that cost if i'm getting a different brand). I guess one plus of the Wolf is that supposedly the burners are designed so that the flame isn't quite as wide (i find i don't use anything higher than medium most of the time, b/c otherwise the flame goes up around the outside of the pot). I can get the Capital from the same retailer, but i'm concerned b/c it's not really proven yet, and it has slightly lower power burners (15k vs 17,500)--but maybe that last difference is negligible.

So, i feel a little stuck for the moment, and i'd certainly welcome any advice.


clipped on: 11.03.2006 at 11:54 am    last updated on: 11.03.2006 at 11:54 am