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Got a few empty hours near Paris?

posted by: anntn6b on 03.13.2014 at 06:03 pm in Antique Roses Forum

An exhibit looks at Josephine's life both with Bonaparte and (to us) the interesting part afterwards when she became a plant collector of major importance.

Here is a link that might be useful: History avenges Josephine de Beauharnais


clipped on: 03.14.2014 at 10:57 pm    last updated on: 03.14.2014 at 10:57 pm

Make your own grafted roses with T-budding. Step by step pictures

posted by: cupshaped_roses on 03.02.2008 at 12:26 pm in Roses Forum

I saw Ann's post about propagating roses with this link:

I have propagated roses this way during the last 7 years. It is the most common way of producing roses here in Europe. Own root roses are very rare here.

It is most helpful for beginners to see a step by step picture guide about how to do this:

1) Propagate rootstock: use Rosa Multiflora, Rosa Laxa, Rosa Fortuniana cuttings and root plenty of these in trays. Use a rooting powder. After 10 weeks I plant the rooted multiflora cuttings in my former vegetable garden. The rooted cuttings are planted about 10 inches apart in rows and kept well watered. In the spring next year I prune the multiflora roses hard and in July or early August the root stocks are ready to be budded with the cultivar you want to propagate:

2) The canes of the multiflora roses are bent sidewards by a
board and I scrape the soil away exposing the top part of the rooted roses. The top part of the roses are washed clean with a wetted cloth:


3) From one of the canes of the cultivar you want to propagate you make an upward cut just below the bud-eye and under the bud:(Use a budding knife or a scalpel):


4) Tear the cutted bud-eye away from the cane with a piece of the bark:


5) Remove the pith on the inner side of the bud-shield with the knife.



6) Your budeye is ready:


7) Make a horizontal cut in the bark about 1 inch below the part of the root neck from where the canes grow.


8) Make a vertical cut from the middle of the horizontal, extending about an inch downwards. You have now made a T-shaped cut in the bark:


9) Gently push the bark to one the sides with the knife opening the T-shaped slit:


10) Insert the budeye-shield into the slit:


11) cut the top part of the shield bark away


12) The budeye inserted into place in the T-shaped slit:


13) The T-budded eye graft is covered with budding tape and secured with a metal clip:


14: Rows of grafted roses:


15) After 6 weeks in colder areas probably in climate zones less than 8, I mound soil up about 2-3 inches to protect the graft from frost. In early spring after the snow is gone and the new growth is starting, I cut the top part of the multiflora rootstock away a little less than an inch above the graft. The budding tape will be gone by then (decomposed) and basals will sprout from the bud (making the scion).


In warmer zones with barely any winter I think they cut the top part of the rootstock after about 6 weeks.

Some tips.

It is possible to buy rooted rootstocks in bundles. that is easier than making them yourself. Use the right Rootstock for your area (climate zone and soil type). If you plant them early this year you can graft already later this year.

Practice step 3-5! Use some canes from the summer pruning.

Do not allow the back of bud-shield or the T-shaped cut in root necks to become dirty or to dry out. Step 3-13 takes less than 20 seconds with some training. So practice!! My succes rate in the beginning was 3-4 out of 10. Now it is 7-8 out of 10.


clipped on: 03.02.2008 at 02:42 pm    last updated on: 03.02.2008 at 02:44 pm

RE: Rose standard dead...rose growing back at old site...Dr. Huey (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: mike_rivers on 10.03.2007 at 08:34 am in Roses Forum

Ronda, I have a sentence in my notebook about rose standards, which evidently came from the Maryland Rose Society website:

"The understock used by Jackson & Perkins generally, according to Mike Cady,
Horticulturist for J&P, is a double graft of De la Grifferaie (Hmult, deep pink, Vibert, 1845) onto
Dr. Huey (LCl dark red, Thomas, 1914) which, in turn, has the chosen variety grafted onto it.
Sometimes they use Dr. Huey alone for the root and main cane stock onto which the chosen
variety is grafted."


clipped on: 10.03.2007 at 08:43 am    last updated on: 10.03.2007 at 08:44 am

RE: Watering Question (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: michaelg on 05.12.2007 at 12:35 pm in Antique Roses Forum

Francie, what is usually recommmended is one inch per week, not two inches. You might need two inches in a Phoenix summer with low humidity and temperatures of 105+, but here in the East in May with plants less than their late-season size, 3/4 inch is enough. If you have sand or sandy loam, it may be better to give two lighter waterings a week rather than one heavy one, because roses prefer to have the topsoil stay moist.

You will need to run your hose with attachment into a container and count how many seconds it takes to get a gallon. Then 2 gallons equals around 1 inch on a 2 x 2' space, or 4 gallons = 1" on a 3 x 3' space. Different attachments may produce a very different flow rate.

I enjoy hand watering too. It's about 20 seconds per plant for me. You can buy a timer to wear around your neck so you don't have to count.

If you add your state and climate zone to your username, people would be in a better position to give relevant advice.


clipped on: 05.16.2007 at 11:34 am    last updated on: 05.16.2007 at 11:34 am

RE: bareroot questions... (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: mike_rivers on 04.18.2007 at 10:59 pm in Roses Forum

Loststar, about your last question, "If roses like well drained soil how is it that we can keep them soaking in water without problems?" Roots require oxygen. Normally, oxygen from the air can penetrate a soil through the empty pore spaces. When a soil is saturated with water, the pore spaces are blocked and diffusion of oxygen from the air down to the roots can become so slow that the roots suffocate. On the other hand, oxygen from the air readily enters water in an open bucket and diffusion is fast enough to keep the entire bucket of water saturated with oxygen.


clipped on: 04.19.2007 at 08:25 am    last updated on: 04.19.2007 at 08:25 am

RE: Triple Bud, help, good or bad (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: anntn6b on 04.09.2007 at 08:13 pm in Roses Forum

It's called fasciation (now you know something that the folks who edit the ARS magazine missed).
In some other plants like dandylions and cockscomb it's caused by something called a phytoplasma, which is like a virus but without a wall of any kind.
If it affected the entire stem, there would be a possibility of propagating it, but it's only affecting a small part of a spray, so just enjoy it...and how it opens.


clipped on: 04.09.2007 at 09:00 pm    last updated on: 04.09.2007 at 09:00 pm

RE: Steve Solomon fertilizer mix, part 2 (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: bpgreen on 03.20.2007 at 09:58 pm in Soil Forum

The lab test tells you that the pH is truly high, and not an off the wall result from a kit that isn't accurate.

If I remember correctly, much of Eastern Oregon is semi-arid to arid. high pH is fairly common in arid areas. On the bright side, that means that you're more likely to be able to easily find things like soil sulfur to lower your pH, chelated iron to get iron to the plants until the pH is lowered and water soluble iron for foliar sprays.

The best thing to do for the long haul is to add lots of Organic Matter, even if you just spread it on top (it'll work its way down into the soil as time goes on). It's also common in arid areas for the soil to be low in OM and adding OM can benefit in many ways.

You can use sulfur to lower your pH, but it really works best when it is dug into the soil, rather than spread on top, and that isn't practical over a large area.

If you have leaves that are turning yellow, especially if they are yellow with green veins are likely suffering from iron chlorosis. You can use chelated iron to help with this (your soil may have plenty of iron, but in an unusable form). With a pH of 7.5, EDTA chelated iron will not be very (if at all) helpful. EDDHA chelated iron is what you need. Unfortunately, the EDTA form is much more common (and less expensive) than the EDDHA, but using EDTA may well be a waste of time and money.

A foliar spray with water soluble iron can temporarily help iron deficient plants, but you need to be careful that you don't overdo it, and you can't do it if it's going to get too hot in the next few days after spraying. It's best to mix a little soap or shampoo in with the spray to help it coat the leaves more evenly.

Here's my take on these approaches:

Adding OM: Needs to be done on an ongoing basis. Affects pH slowly (may take a year or more), but continues to help as long as you continue adding the OM.

Sulfur: Helpful in targeted areas, but impractical over large areas. Takes months to take effect, but effects are relatively long term.

Chelated iron: Best to apply to plants that really need it. Effects can show up in a few days to a week or so. Short lived effects (less than one season). Can be expensive and difficult to find EDDHA, which may be needed for your pH.

Foliar spray: Effects often noticeable in minutes if not hours. Over application or application during times of heat can cause leaf burning.

One other point (if you've read this far) is that over watering can exacerbate the situation. You want to water deeply, but let the soil dry out somewhat between waterings. For trees, set a hose on trickle for a few hours and move it around to soak deeply into the soil all around the dripline, but only do so once a month or so.


clipped on: 03.21.2007 at 10:08 am    last updated on: 03.21.2007 at 10:08 am

RE: Blackspot (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: mike_rivers on 03.10.2007 at 08:40 am in Roses Forum

I'm assuming you plan to use modern synthetic fungicides. Your choice of weapons are:

1) Systemics. These inhibit germination of BS spores and some, maybe all, also kill an established infection. The most popular seem to be propiconazole (Banner Maxx, Infuse), tebuconazole (various Bayer products) and myclobutanil (Immunox). These three all have the same mode of action (MOA) and it is pointless to rotate among them - pick the best (either propiconazole or tebuconazole, in my opinion) and stick with it. Performance of each is improved with addition of a spreader-sticker (I just add two tsps of any liquid dish detergent per gallon to act as a spreader, you can tell if you need a spreader by examing the sprayed leaves for a uniform film of wetness, rather than beads of spray) Compass is a more expensive systemic which has a different MOA.

2) Surface Fungicides. The most popular seem to be Mancozeb or Manzate and Daconil. These sit on the surface of the leaf and are not absorbed into the plant, mostly because they are very water-insoluble. This, in turn, means they are sprayed as an emulsion rather than as a water solution. They function by killing spores, perhaps on contact or perhaps during the germination stage. They are not supposed to kill an established infection. Daconil can be phytotoxic to the leaves, especially during hot weather and Mancozeb is worthless unless your tap water is adjusted to an acidic pH close to 5.

A reasonable way to conduct your warfare is to use the minimum force necessary. The backbone of your campaign should be a systemic. I would suggest Banner Maxx sprayed biweekly, from leaf-out to leaf-off, as a start. This is all it takes to obtain satisfactory control in my garden. If that isn't sufficient, move up to weekly application. If that isn't sufficient, then you could rotate in a surface fungicide and so forth. In BS hell, you might also want to rotate in Compass and include a dormant-season application, typically lime/sulfur or one of the above surface fungicides.


clipped on: 03.10.2007 at 09:34 am    last updated on: 03.10.2007 at 09:34 am

RE: Too late to spray Bonide Oil & Lime Sulfur? (Follow-Up #8)

posted by: mike_rivers on 03.09.2007 at 04:23 pm in Roses Forum

Cyberblue, sulfur/oil mixtures can be phytotoxic (damaging to the plant) because sulfur tends to react chemically with the oil to produce phytotoxic compounds of sulfur. The situation with copper fungicides is quite the opposite. Water soluble copper salts are taken up by a plant and tend to be very phytotoxic. The basic idea of the various copper "bordeaux" formulations is simply that they are very insoluble copper salts. Consequently, only small amounts of copper are available to the plant at any one time, too small to harm the plant but large enough to kill the fungus. When oil and copper are sprayed in concert, the oil tends to coat the copper and limit its dissolution in water to an even greater extent, making phytotoxicity even less likely.


clipped on: 03.09.2007 at 06:08 pm    last updated on: 03.09.2007 at 06:08 pm

RE: Too late to spray Bonide Oil & Lime Sulfur? (Follow-Up #4)

posted by: mike_rivers on 03.09.2007 at 09:43 am in Roses Forum

Wendy, the Bonide lime sulfur label specifically distinguishes between dormant season, early season and growing season. Once the buds have started to swell, you are in Bonide's version of the growing season and you should not mix sulfur and oil sprays - the combination is especially toxic to the plant. Furthermore, the recommended concentration of lime/sulfur drops to a small fraction of that recommended for the dormant season. My own opinion is that in my garden, a dormant season spray of oil, or really of any insecticide, is pointless and the benefits of spraying with lime/sulfur as a fungicide at any time are minimal compared to spraying with Banner Maxx as soon as the plant starts to leaf out.


clipped on: 03.09.2007 at 06:08 pm    last updated on: 03.09.2007 at 06:08 pm

RE: Forcing Basal Break (bud) (Follow-Up #13)

posted by: mike_rivers on 03.07.2007 at 08:35 pm in Roses Forum

Triacontanol is not formed by fermentation. It exists mostly on the leaves of alfalfa in the form of a simple ester which is hydrolyzed to triacontanol simply by contact with water. Triacontanol is almost totally insoluble in water and the only way it appears to get inside the rose is in the form of a water emulsion. Fortunately, triacontanol appears to be effective in incredibly small amounts, but an interesting experiment might be to add a few tablespoons of a shampoo or rinse containing the emulsifying agent, polysorbate 20, to either alfalfa tea or to the water used to wet down the pellets.


clipped on: 03.08.2007 at 09:40 am    last updated on: 03.08.2007 at 09:40 am

RE: Cottonseed and blood and bone meal... (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: mike_rivers on 03.07.2007 at 09:28 am in Roses Forum

Angela, I do what Pete does, just put a cup or so of alfalfa pellets under the mulch and close in to the base of the plant, and then soak with a little water. But, to get to your question, a good recipe to start off with is probably the original recipe for alfalfa tea, as described by Howard Walters, the Rosarian Rambler, in an ARS article:

"Alfalfa tea is a great spring or fall potion that doesn't interfere with normal seasonal processes. Alfalfa tea releases a growth hormone that makes everything work better. Just add 10 to 12 cups of alfalfa meal or pellets to a 32-gallon plastic garbage can (with a lid), add water, stir and steep for four or five days, stirring occasionally. You may also "fortify" with 2 cups of Epsom salts, 1/2 cup of Sequestrene® (chelated iron, now called Sprint 330) or your favorite trace element elixir.

The tea will start to smell in about three days. Keep the lid ON. Use about a gallon of mix on large rose bushes, 1/3 that much on mini's. And keep the water going.

When you get to the bottom of the barrel, add water to fill it up again! One load of meal or pellets will brew up two barrels full, but add more fortifiers for the second barrel.

You'll see greener growth and stronger stems within a week."


clipped on: 03.07.2007 at 10:12 am    last updated on: 03.07.2007 at 10:12 am

The First Book of the Lasagna Bed

posted by: eaglesight on 08.01.2005 at 11:55 pm in Cottage Garden Forum

In the beginning there was the lawn and the lawn was bare. And eaglesight spoke, "Let us build a lasagna bed." And it was so.

And eaglesight's small children kept picking up the garden tools. And eaglesight commanded, "Let the garden tools go." But the children were stiffnecked and walked in the imaginations of their own heart in thinking they could do the strip-and-flip to prepare the lasagna bed.

So eaglesight gave up and took some pictures.
Girls attempting to dig.
And eaglesight finally managed to get the tools back and finish the strip-and-flip job.

And the evening and the morning were the first day.

And eaglesight got the weathered wood 4x4's that had anchored the old shed and put them around the bed.

And eaglesight begged her husband to get grass clippings and leaves out of other people's trash. And the husband was mortified, and would not do it. And eaglesight prevailed over her husband and finally talked him into it. And the husband was wroth when someone's bag of grass clippings peed on his leg.

But eaglesight had her materials for the lasagna bed. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

And eaglesight spread the grass clippings in alternating layers with pizza cartons and dry leaves. And the children were pleased to finally get their hands dirty doing something. And eaglesight saw that it was good.

And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Then eaglesight rested from her labors for a really long time. And she kept waiting for the man from church to drop off her free load of dirt he promised that he would give to her. And eaglesight began to be impatient.

Then the load of dirt was brought unto eaglesight's home. And eaglesight saw that it was good. It was like unto the local dirt, full of clay, but of a good texture and earthy smell. And eaglesight saw that it was good.

And eaglesight spread a layer of it over the lasagna bed. Then the children helped her plant a bunch of winter-sown seedlings. And eaglesight saw that they meant well and let them help as much as she could stand to.

And it was good.
Lasagna garden after planting.

And eaglesight had no idea if this lasagna garden thing would even work out.

Lo, what is this sight of really tall flower stalks and long watermelon vines? What means this profusion of marigolds and alyssum flower? Oh, the bolted lettuce that never was picked! The sugar peas that died of drought! My heart was exceeding joyful within me and laughter filled mine ears.
Marigolds.Cheerful zinnias.
Watermelon.Watermelon vines going wild.
The yellow marigolds are just about to bloom.More marigolds with alyssum.

And lo, eaglesight was pleased to see that the marigolds were 30% bigger than those planted in plain soil, and that the watermelon starts she gave unto the neighbor have barely reached a foot of growth.

And eaglesight discovered that her daughter could enter her zinnias and marigolds into the fair junior flower show. And she spake with her daughter, and her daughter was pleased with the idea. So on August 25, yea, we will discover the secrets of exactly how well these plants stack up. And lo, eaglesight had committed herself to a month of making sure everything was watered.

And eaglesight rested from her labors of weeding and mowing. And it was good.


I hope no one was offended or found this to be sacriligious. I started to type and the first sentence came out the way it did and I just had to go with it. LOL


clipped on: 03.04.2007 at 09:27 pm    last updated on: 03.04.2007 at 09:28 pm

RE: Mulch how close to the canes? (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: andrew_london on 03.01.2007 at 01:29 am in Antique Roses Forum

I think I have more of an answer now.

You are not supposed to mulch right up to the stems of plants because the breakdown of organic matter releases ammonia which can burn them.

The more fully rotted the organic matter, the less likely it is to cause burn. Thus, harmless-looking wood chips are actually quite dangerous because they will have a lot of breaking down to do.

In amenity planting, however, layers of wood chip are placed all over borders and right up to shrubs all the time. I guess that the explanation for this is that shrubs have woody stems and are therefore less likely to be damaged by the breakdown of organic matter than plants with soft young green stems.

Clearly it also makes a difference to what depth you mulch. You are supposed to add between two and three inches to obtain any real benefit. That's a lot of mulch.


clipped on: 03.01.2007 at 08:01 am    last updated on: 03.01.2007 at 08:01 am

RE: Question About Soil and PH (Follow-Up #11)

posted by: mike_rivers on 02.23.2007 at 08:33 am in Roses Forum

Some things about sulfur and soil pH: Elemental sulfur is what is normally used to lower soil pH. It is slowly oxidized in the soil by micororganisms to produce sulfuric acid, which is the actual soil acidifier. It's main advantage is that it's cheap and very safe to handle and it's certified for organic farming. A rough rule of thumb is that 2 pounds of sulfur per 100 sq feet of bed will lower a typical soil's pH by one unit. Finely powdered sulfur works faster and if the dust bothers you, an easy way to apply it is to mix a measured amount (dampened, if you want) with some soil in a bucket and then spread that evenly over the bed.

Lime sulfur is a chemical made by mixing quick lime with elemental sulfur. Both sulfur and lime sulfur are fungicides and both can be used to lower soil pH. Lime sulfur is sometimes called calcium polysulfide and it is much more toxic than elemental sulfur. Lime sulfur rapidly decomposes after spraying to form elemental sulfur, which is thought to be the active fungicide. The main reason why people endure the unpleasant nature of lime sulfur rather than simply spraying elemental sulfur in the first place is that lime sulfur dissolves in water. Elemental sulfur doesn't and must be sprayed as an emulsion which may clog a sprayer. There are commercial elemental sulfur fungicides which contain a mixture of water and propylene glycol, which functions as a sulfur solvent, and these products can be sprayed easily. Safer's brand is one such.

Almost all rose authorities in the US recommend a soil pH around 6.5. I am not at all convinced (I'm not pretending to be an authority, I'm just pleading ignorance) that there is a good reason for this, other than that iron deficiency is less likely at this pH. Roses are notoriously inefficient at extracting iron from the soil but there are ways (iron chelates, for one), to give them iron at practically any soil pH and the availability of iron depends on many other factors besides the soil pH. At any rate, if your soil is just slightly on the alkaline side and you would prefer it to be slightly on the acid side, I think the fastest and easiest way to do this is to work some sphagnum peat moss into the top 2 inches of your bed. Four bales of peat moss (a total of 16 cubic feet) has the same acidifying power as 2 pounds of sulfur, and will lower the pH of 100 sq ft of bed by one unit. This amounts to a 2 inch thick layer of peat moss. I would be inclined to apply a 1 inch layer, work it in, and see how things progress during one full season.


clipped on: 02.28.2007 at 09:39 am    last updated on: 02.28.2007 at 09:39 am

RE: Ideal N-P-K ratios for roses? (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: mike_rivers on 02.24.2007 at 09:12 pm in Roses Forum

I've been collecting "ideal" NPK ratios for a long time. If you believe there is one best ideal ratio, you can take your pick:

The actual ratio of nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium in rose tissue, adjusted to a fertilizer basis is: 3-2-1. This must be the ideal ratio.

When added to the soil, the fertilizer elements are lost to the plant, in unequal amounts, because of leaching and mineralization. If the 3-2-1 ratio is corrected for this unequal loss, the ratio becomes 1-1-1. This must be the ideal ratio.

The extension services at Michigan State University, The University of Illinois and probably at several other universities (because extension services mostly copy from each other) recommend a 10-10-10 ratio. This must be the ideal ratio.

Mills Magic Mix has a 6-5-1 ratio. This is the best possible rose food, so this must be the ideal ratio.

MagnumGro, 6-10-8, was developed by Tommy Cairns, a former president of the American Rose Society. Surely he knows his business and this must be the ideal ratio.

Phosphorous is especially harmful to the natural Mycorrhiza
fungi which colonize rose roots and are so valuable to the rose. The ideal ratio should reflect this fact and must have a "0" value for "P".

The amount of phosphorous and potassium required can only be determined by a soil test. The ideal ratio would include sufficient nitrogen to supply the average rose precisely 70 mg of nitrogen per day, together with the amounts of P and K determined by the soil test laboratory.

Mike Rivers has been feeding his roses Osmocote Indoor and Outdoor Plant Food (19-6-12), which he obtained at a super price several years back. Surely, he can't be a total idiot and 19-6-12 must be the ideal ratio.


clipped on: 02.28.2007 at 09:08 am    last updated on: 02.28.2007 at 09:08 am

RE: Alfalfa and rose fertilizer question (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: mike_rivers on 02.25.2007 at 08:14 am in Roses Forum

Let's suppose your specially formulated fertilizer has an NPK value of 10/10/10. If you apply 1 ounce per rose, a fairly typical feeding for 1 month, you would add 0.1 ounces of N, 0.1 ounces of P and 0.1 ounces of K.

Alfalfa meal of good quality has an NPK ratio approaching 3/1/2. If you apply 1 cup of alfalfa meal per rose, this would weigh 6 ounces and you would add 0.18 ounces of N, 0.06 ounces of P and 0.12 ounces of K.

If you apply both the specially formulated fertilizer and the cup of alfalfa at the same time, you would add a total of 7 ounces of fertilizer and 0.28 ounces of N, 0.16 ounces of P, and 0.22 ounces of K. If you sold this mixture as a fertilizer, you would be required by law to state the NPK analysis as: 4/2/3 or more precisely: 4/2.3/3.1.

I tend to think that fussing over the NPK ratio only begins to make sense if either you have done some very careful experimenting in your own garden or if you also include the fertilizer value of the soil in your calculation. Typical NPK value of an unfertilized soil might range from .0025/.001/0.1 to .0075/.004/0.3. These sound like trivial amounts, but remember, the soil available to one rose will weigh a whole bunch more than any other fertilizer you might apply. A soil text, in essence, gives you the P and K values for your soil but there appears to be no satisfactory way to obtain an estimate of the effective N value for a soil.


clipped on: 02.28.2007 at 08:59 am    last updated on: 02.28.2007 at 08:59 am

RE: Daconil application rate (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: mike_rivers on 02.19.2007 at 08:41 am in Antique Roses Forum

A good general rule is to spray the minimum amount of the least dangerous fungicide at the lowest frequency necessary to obtain control in your garden. Here in mid-Michigan, my roses will get blackspot every year, without fail, but, compared country-wide, I would say this is only a medium severity area. I can get near perfect control by spraying all 50 of my susceptible roses every other week, from Spring pruning to late Fall, with Banner Maxx (propiconazole). I spray very lightly, just the top of the leaves, with a very inexpensive Hudson sprayer and I use less than 1 gallon of spray each time. If I see any spotted leaves, I increase the frequency to once per week. I have a strong suspicion that somewhere out there is an organic-certified fungicide that'll do the job almost as well, in my garden. Part of the reason why I hesitate to look is that I grow lots of phlox in with my roses and powdery mildew is a really serious problem with these. Banner Maxx is 100% effective at preventing mildew on my phlox and none of the organic sprays I've tried even begin to compare.

If blackspot is a more serious problem in your area, the standard full treatment is to spray weekly with a surface fungicide (Mancozeb, usually) mixed with a systemic (propiconazole or tebuconazole). If you want a dormant spray as well, I would recommend Mancozeb - and not lime sulfur.


clipped on: 02.19.2007 at 02:43 pm    last updated on: 02.19.2007 at 02:43 pm

RE: Crown Gall (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: karl_bapst_rosenut on 02.17.2007 at 11:40 pm in Roses Forum

At nine this morning someone else posted regarding Crown Gall. The link follows. This is the same response I gave there.
When I remove a crown gall infected rose I drench the area with a 5% bleach solution and replant a new bush in the same place. So far I've not had any re-infection.
On roses I want to salvage, I also remove the gall from the rose, cutting away a little unaffected tissue with it. I then apply an antibacterial ointment. This too has been successful. All tools should be disinfected after doing this.
The above has worked for me, but I can't guarantee individual results.
As far as making the gall go away, the only thing you can do is remove it completely. The bacteria is in the soil and enters through cuts, insect bites, or damaged spots. Being a bacteria, I tried anti-bacterial ointment and it seemed to prevent re-infection on any bush I operated on. I get what's available over the counter at Wal*Mart or Walgreen's.
After reatment I pot the plant and observe it for a season.

Here is a link that might be useful: Crown gall post.


clipped on: 02.19.2007 at 07:48 am    last updated on: 02.19.2007 at 07:48 am

Japanese Beetles, A few thoughts and some Published Data

posted by: mike_rivers on 02.02.2007 at 02:59 pm in Roses Forum

Concerning JB control, a few thoughts:

If you grow roses in a typical suburban setting, the single best thing you can do is to treat your lawn with a commercial, synthetic pesticide for JB grubs at the optimum times for your zone. The next best thing would be to get your immediate neighbors to do the same. None of this will work if there is nearby farmland suitable for grub production. In most cases, I do not think milky spore is an effective treatment for the JB.

To my knowledge, and I've been searching the literature for five years, the only effective antifeedants or repellents known for the adult JB are insecticides. The link below will take you to the 2005 Landscape report published by the University of Kentucky. If you scroll down to page 22 of the report, you will find an article by Daniel Potter, "Residual and Antifeedant Activity of Landscape Insecticides Against Japanese Beetles". I would draw the following general conclusions from this article:

The best protectants and the longest lasting ones are synthetic pyrethrins. These are follwed by Sevin and Sevin is follwed by Imidacloprid. These are all potent killers of all insects and given that they must be reapplied at least weekly and perhaps more often, they would be unacceptable to many gardeners (I think they are to me - most of the time).

The next most effective insecticides are the natural insecticides (approved for organic certified agriculture under some conditions), Pyola (a natural pyrethrin obtained from a variety of chrysanthemum), followed by Neem extract. There are several, seemingly reliable, reports of satisfactory control of JB on roses using Neem extract. There are also lots of seemingly reliable reports of unsatisfactory control of JB on roses using Neem extract. If you decide to give Neem a try, make sure you buy one of the commercial products containing Azadirachtin because this seems to be the active repellent. Commercial products containing the words, "Clarified Extract of Neem", or "Hydrophobic extract of Neem", are worthless for JB control.

Here is a link that might be useful: UK Report


clipped on: 02.02.2007 at 08:35 pm    last updated on: 02.02.2007 at 08:35 pm

RE: Jean TN, did anyone save her disease pics (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: jean on 01.22.2007 at 08:22 pm in Antique Roses Forum

Here you go:

Powdery mildew:




Cercospora (early stages):

Rose rosette disease:

More rose rosette disease:

More rose rosette disease:

Thrips damage:




Rose mosaic virus:

There you have it.



clipped on: 01.23.2007 at 11:24 am    last updated on: 01.23.2007 at 11:25 am

RE: what makes a rose disease resistant? (Follow-Up #10)

posted by: york_rose on 01.17.2007 at 11:04 pm in Roses Forum

Wildlifegarden, black spot seems different from a virus because it isn't caused by a virus. It's caused by a fungus species called Diplocarpon rosae. Plants have genes just as animals do, and just as animals have immune systems operated by their genes, plants have immune systems operated by their genes (although the immune system of a plant is much different from a mammal's immune system).

It is a general pattern of the rose family plants not to devote much effort to strong immune systems, but instead to devote energy to making as many babies as possible. Most of the fruits of the north temperate region are in the rose family and all are famously susceptible to diseases (peaches, nectarines, strawberries, raspberries, blackberries, apples, almonds, pears, plums, cherries - all of them are this way).

Having said that, there are roses known for their resistance to some diseases. For instance, Rosa rugosa rarely suffers much at all from black spot. It's nearly completely immune (although it suffers from other diseases). The German hybridizer Kordes is well known for raising black spot-resistant roses.

Obviously the genetic systems of some rose species include genes that allow the species to not suffer much (or at all) from black spot, but those genes are not widespread in the popular hybrid tea hybrids one hears most about.

In addition, black spot has its own genes that allow it to thrive best in a warm and humid climate. The mid-Atlantic area is black spot heaven! It also is readily found in New England, although New England isn't as congenial to it because the warm part of the year is much shorter. I daresay you have a big problem with it in Florida, too. If you lived in Arizona or Southern California you would not see it as much (instead you'd be contending with rose rust, a different fungal disease of roses that likes warm, dry climates).

The genes of a plant create proteins for all manner of different functions within the plant. Some of those proteins cause a rose to be resistant to black spot, although I don't know the details of that mechanism. I don't know if that research has been done yet, either. (It will be done some day, but I don't know when. Right now most of that kind of research money isn't going to roses, but to agronomic crops such as corn, rice, soybeans, and cotton.)


clipped on: 01.18.2007 at 11:49 am    last updated on: 01.18.2007 at 11:49 am

Container soils and water in containers (long post)

posted by: tapla on 03.19.2005 at 03:57 pm in Container Gardening Forum

The following is very long & will be too boring for some to wade through. Two years ago, some of my posts got people curious & they started to e-mail me about soil problems. The "Water Movement" article is an answer I gave in an e-mail. I saved it and adapted it for my bonsai club newsletter & it was subsequently picked up & used by a number of other clubs. I now give talks on container soils and the physics of water movement in containers to area clubs.

I think, as container gardeners, our first priority is to insure aeration for the life of the soil. Since aeration and drainage are inversely linked to soil particle size, it makes good sense to try to find a soil component with particles larger than peat and that will retain its structure for extended periods. Pine bark fits the bill nicely.

The following hits pretty hard against the futility of using a drainage layer in an attempt to improve drainage. It just doesn't work. All it does is reduce the soil available for root colonization. A wick will remove the saturated layer of soil. It works in reverse of the self-watering pots widely being discussed on this forum now. I have no experience with these growing containers, but understand the principle well.

There are potential problems with wick watering that can be alleviated with certain steps. Watch for yellowing leaves with these pots. If they begin to occur, you need to flush the soil well. It is the first sign of chloride damage.

One of the reasons I posted this is because of the number of soil questions I'm getting in my mail. It will be a convenient source for me to link to. I will soon be in the middle of repotting season & my time here will be reduced, unfortunately, for me. I really enjoy all the friends I've made on these forums. ;o)

Since there are many questions about soils appropriate for containers, I'll post by basic mix in case any would like to try it. It will follow the Water Movement info.

Water Movement in Soils

Consider this if you will:

Soil need fill only a few needs in plant culture. Anchorage - A place for roots to extend, securing the plant and preventing it from toppling. Nutrient Sink - It must retain sufficient nutrients to sustain plant systems. Gas Exchange - It must be sufficiently porous to allow air to the root system. And finally, Water - It must retain water enough in liquid and/or vapor form to sustain plants between waterings. Most plants could be grown without soil as long as we can provide air, nutrients, and water, (witness hydroponics). Here, I will concentrate primarily on the movement of water in soil(s).

There are two forces that cause water movement through soil - one is gravity, the other capillary action. Gravity needs little explanation, but for this writing I would like to note: Gravitational flow potential (GFP) is greater for water at the top of the pot than it is for water at the bottom of the pot. I'll return to that later. Capillarity is a function of the natural forces of adhesion and cohesion. Adhesion is water's tendency to stick to solid objects like soil particles and the sides of the pot. Cohesion is the tendency for water to stick to itself. Cohesion is why we often find water in droplet form - because cohesion is at times stronger than adhesion, waters bond to itself can be stronger than the bond to the object it might be in contact with; in this condition it forms a drop. Capillary action is in evidence when we dip a paper towel in water. The water will soak into the towel and rise several inches above the surface of the water. It will not drain back into the source. It will stop rising when the GFP equals the capillary attraction of the fibers in the paper.

There is, in every pot, what is called a "perched water table" (PWT). This is water that occupies a layer of soil that is always saturated & will not drain at the bottom of the pot. It can evaporate or be used by the plant, but physical forces will not allow it to drain. It is there because the capillary pull of the soil at some point will equal the GFP; therefore, the water does not drain, it is "perched". If we fill five cylinders of varying heights and diameters with the same soil mix and provide each cylinder with a drainage hole, the PWT will be exactly the same height in each container. This is the area of the pot where roots seldom penetrate & where root problems begin due to a lack of aeration. From this we can draw the conclusion that: Tall growing containers are a superior choice over squat containers when using the same soil mix. The reason: The level of the PWT will be the same in each container, with the taller container providing more usable, air holding soil above the PWT. Physiology dictates that plants must be able to take in air at the roots in order to complete transpiration and photosynthesis.

A given volume of large soil particles have less overall surface area in comparison to the same volume of small particles and therefore less overall adhesive attraction to water. So, in soils with large particles, GFP more readily overcomes capillary attraction. They drain better. We all know this, but the reason, often unclear, is that the PWT is lower in coarse soils than in fine soils. The key to good drainage is size and uniformity of soil particles. Large particles mixed with small particles will not improve drainage because the smaller particles fit between the large, increasing surface area which increases the capillary attraction and thus the water holding potential. Water and air cannot occupy the same space at the same time. Contrary to what some hold to be true, sand does not improve drainage. Pumice (aka lava rock), or one of the hi-fired clay products like Turface are good additives which help promote drainage and porosity because of their irregular shape.

Now to the main point: When we use a coarse drainage layer under our soil, it does not improve drainage. It does conserve on the volume of soil required to fill a pot and it makes the pot lighter. When we employ this exercise in an attempt to improve drainage, what we are actually doing is moving the level of the PWT higher in the pot. This reduces available soil for roots to colonize, reduces total usable pot space, and limits potential for beneficial gas exchange. Containers with uniform soil particle size from top of container to bottom will yield better drainage and have a lower PWT than containers with drainage layers. The coarser the drainage layer, the more detrimental to drainage it is because water is more (for lack of a better scientific word) reluctant to make the downward transition because the capillary pull of the soil above the drainage layer is stronger than the GFP. The reason for this is there is far more surface area in the soil for water to be attracted to than there is in the drainage layer.

I know this goes against what most have thought to be true, but the principle is scientifically sound, and experiments have shown it as so. Many nurserymen are now employing the pot-in-pot or the pot-in-trench method of growing to capitalize on the science.

If you discover you need to increase drainage, insert a wick into the pot & allow it to extend from the PWT to several inches below the bottom of the pot. This will successfully eliminate the PWT & give your plants much more soil to grow in as well as allow more, much needed air to the roots.

Uniform size particles of fir, hemlock or pine bark are excellent as the primary component of your soils. The lignin contained in bark keeps it rigid and the rigidity provides air-holding pockets in the root zone far longer than peat or compost mixes that rapidly break down to a soup-like consistency. Bark also contains suberin, a lipid sometimes referred to as natures preservative. Suberin is what slows the decomposition of bark-based soils. It contains highly varied hydrocarbon chains and the microorganisms that turn peat to soup have great difficulty cleaving these chains.

In simple terms: Plants that expire because of drainage problems either die of thirst because the roots have rotted and can no longer take up water, or they starve to death because they cannot obtain sufficient air at the root zone for the respiratory or photosynthetic processes.

To confirm the existence of the PWT and the effectiveness of using a wick to remove it, try this experiment: Fill a soft drink cup nearly full of garden soil. Add enough water to fill to the top, being sure all soil is saturated. Punch a drain hole in the bottom of the cup & allow to drain. When the drainage stops, insert a wick several inches up into the drain hole . Take note of how much additional water drains. This is water that occupied the PWT before being drained by the wick. A greatly simplified explanation of what occurs is: The wick "fools" the water into thinking the pot is deeper, so water begins to move downward seeking the "new" bottom of the pot, pulling the rest of the PWT along with it.

Having applied these principles in the culture of my containerized plants, both indoors and out, for many years, the methodology I have adopted has shown to be effective and of great benefit to them. I use many amendments when building my soils, but the basic building process starts with screened bark and perlite. Peat usually plays a very minor role in my container soils because it breaks down rapidly and when it does, it impedes drainage.

My Soil

I'll give two recipes. I usually make big batches.

3 parts pine bark fines
1 part sphagnum peat (not reed or sedge peat)
1-2 parts perlite
garden lime
controlled release fertilizer
micro-nutrient powder (substitute: small amount of good, composted manure

Big batch:

3 cu ft pine bark fines (1 big bag)
5 gallons peat
5 gallons perlite
1 cup lime (you can add more to small portion if needed)
2 cups CRF
1/2 cup micro-nutrient powder or 1 gal composted manure

Small batch:

3 gallons pine bark
1/2 gallon peat
1/2 gallon perlite
handful lime (careful)
1/4 cup CRF
1 tsp micro-nutrient powder or a dash of manure ;o)

I have seen advice that some highly organic soils are productive for up to 5 years. I disagree. Even if you were to substitute fir bark for pine bark in this recipe (and this recipe will far outlast any peat based soil) you should only expect a maximum of three years life before a repot is in order. Usually perennials, including trees (they're perennials too, you know ;o)) should be repotted more frequently to insure vigor closer to genetic potential. If a soil is desired that will retain structure for long periods, we need to look to inorganic amendments. Some examples are crushed granite, pea stone, coarse sand (no smaller than BB size in containers, please), Haydite, lava rock, Turface or Schultz soil conditioner.

I hope this starts a good exchange of ideas & opinions so we all can learn.



clipped on: 12.06.2006 at 01:15 pm    last updated on: 12.06.2006 at 01:15 pm

RE: So what to do with those cheap Merrygro roses? (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: mad_gallica on 11.22.2006 at 12:06 pm in Roses Forum

They shouldn't be turning yellow from lack of sun in only a week. I just had a Prairie Harvest cutting root in the basement in almost total darkness because I never got around to moving it and turning on the lights.

So bop over to your local purveyor of fine lighting fixtures and come home with joe standard shoplight. Set it up in the basement with joe standard cool white bulbs so the roses are almost, but not quite touching the bulbs. In a relatively cool basement, say under 65, that will keep them happy until next spring.


clipped on: 12.06.2006 at 01:09 pm    last updated on: 12.06.2006 at 01:09 pm

RE: In Preparation for the coming of RRD (Follow-Up #13)

posted by: anntn6b on 11.17.2006 at 08:16 pm in Antique Roses Forum

The friendly predators are always with us. It's just sometimes we kill them off as we are busy eradicating their prey.
Some of them are really wierd; one kind of thrip has a enstar (one of the stages it morphs through on its way to becoming an adult) that looks like a rectangular pillow with two legs at each corner.
I garden in an area surrounded by hayfields. Thrips are us. In May, I see thrips on my computer screen. But the beneficials move in and by early June the thrips are under control. Likewise aphids and spider mites.
So I spend time reading about plants that are good for gardens in that they are hosts to the insects that the predators eat.
These papers are not that easy to find.
But I read one about controls of pest in organic mint crops. The mint ususally is totally harvested and allowed to grow back. The farmers then had to reintroduce their predators (and that cost money.) So they did a test and left a square of grotty looking mint unharvested in the middle of their beautiful regrowing organic mint fields. And the grotty mint kept the predators (who were living there with their prey) fed and happy and merrily reproducing themselves so when the problem moved back into the mint crop, the predators were there, on the spot and moved in quickly and efficiently, saving the farmers money.
I have a weed where I can always find ladybug eggs on the undersides of the leaves in season. DH digs it up as weeds, I try to keep it going in the vicinity of the roses for aphid control.
Going with non-chemicals for bug control means nothing's perfect, but no pests in my garden are developing resistance to chemicals (or if they have resistance to chemicals, their (chortle) resistance is futile.) Because hungry predators don't care if their food has resistance to Chemical "x" or not. And therein is the beauty of encouraging beneficial predators.


clipped on: 11.18.2006 at 04:49 pm    last updated on: 11.18.2006 at 04:50 pm

RE: Overwhelmed: Please Help (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: pirula on 10.28.2006 at 09:49 am in Paint Forum

Sorry, just saw this.

You can totally do this. I'm doing it now, including the hole filling, sanding, priming. Trim, windows, doors, cabinets, walls. Primer is very important, don't skip it. Don't skip sanding either. The prep work takes forever, but it's NOT difficult, just tedious. But it is so important for the finished look. Absolutely do the "less important" rooms first, you'll get better and better and you'll learn little personal tricks that you can use to full advantage in other rooms. Get good quality drop cloths, extending poles, good Corona or Wooster brushes, good paint, that WAY cool little painting hand bucket with the magnet for the brush and the scraping lid that cost $15 and I thought was nuts but I love it :). I kind of saw it as my reward for the BIG savings (they're huge, not small) that I was getting from doing all this work myself. Since our job is 90 percent DIY, and since I have like NO skills in that area (I designed everything and did the research and shopping but that it) I felt like the painting (which is a big job) and some staining was my contribution to the marital DIY effort. It makes me feel really good. I'm starting to be really proud of what I've done.

One word of warning though! The only bad thing about DIY'ing this is you know where all the mistakes are. LOL. They may not be many, but you see them, and they'll drive you bonkers for a little while. Then you just kind of forget about them, or one day, you actually find the time to FIX them.

Good luck! Keep coming back for advice!!



clipped on: 11.09.2006 at 03:55 pm    last updated on: 11.09.2006 at 03:56 pm

RE: emergency...what do i do... (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: tommyw on 11.09.2006 at 01:03 pm in Paint Forum

If it were me I'd prime the entire surface with Bullseye 123 and then I'd use a premium paint like Benjamin Moore. I won't use Behr for just the reasons you outline.


clipped on: 11.09.2006 at 03:42 pm    last updated on: 11.09.2006 at 03:42 pm

RE: Where to find Rock Phosphate for organic fert. (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: mike_rivers on 11.02.2006 at 08:58 pm in Organic Rose Growing Forum

Bone meal and rock phosphate are both mostly calcium phosphate. Bone meal has a more open crytal structure and a higher percent of its phosphorous is available to plants. I see no problem at all with substituting bone meal for rock phosphate but you might want to adjust the recipe for the increased available phosphorous in the bone meal. You can buy either bone meal or rock phosphate from Espoma.

Triple phosphate is essentially rock phosphate which has been acidified. This makes more of the phosphorous available to plants and results in an appreciably more economical fertilizer - but also makes the stuff a synthetic chemical and not approved for organic gardening.

Here is a link that might be useful: Espoma


clipped on: 11.03.2006 at 05:25 pm    last updated on: 11.03.2006 at 05:25 pm

RE: Rust on Pruning Shears (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: anntn6b on 10.29.2006 at 09:50 pm in Roses Forum

You can get them smooth with several of the polishing pastes that car renovators use.
But first, steel wool (there are different sizes) combined with something like Zud.
You may not get total shiny back, but you'll get the smooth surface that's easier to clean.
We have three pairs of secateurs, and none have the "new" look...but they are clean.
IF it really bothers you, ask for replacement blades for Christmas (I got the replacement for one side of my big loppers that had been disrepected by someone who will remain nameless who cut into an area with hogwire fencing and then loaned the loppers to someone who finished the job lopping larege branched of hickory.) was the easiest source of repair parts.


clipped on: 10.30.2006 at 10:07 am    last updated on: 10.30.2006 at 10:07 am

RE: Lancaster Nursery? (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: plantman56 on 05.11.2006 at 12:49 pm in Pennsylvania Gardening Forum

Although the original email is a little old, always good to have new places to stop.

I was in Lancaster this weekend and stopped at Shenks GreenHouse on the Old Lancaster Pike. It is a nice GH with good prices. Mostly annuals and a fair selection of perenials -

Any other suggestions please list ......

As always Martins in Devon PA - on 322 Many unusual plants


clipped on: 10.10.2006 at 03:31 pm    last updated on: 10.10.2006 at 03:31 pm

RE: Lancaster Nursery? (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: alliebean on 05.10.2005 at 12:06 am in Pennsylvania Gardening Forum

I 'did' Groffs on Friday. Fantastic perennial starts (3"-4" pots) for $1.75. Plus great selection of regular size perennials at great prices. Always go to Kens (Smoketown) for herbs and vegetables (they also have a few heirloom tomatoes now). I don't buy annuals but they have a good selection. Bulk seeds and cover crops from Rohrers.


clipped on: 10.10.2006 at 03:31 pm    last updated on: 10.10.2006 at 03:31 pm

RE: Good rose history books? (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: spring_chicken on 10.10.2006 at 02:53 am in Antique Roses Forum

Here is the list that Brother Cadfael and ZeffyRose gave me, and some online bookstores that Sue contributed. Hope it helps. - Paul

Here it is again, I still haven't had time to update it.

For Newbies:

(1st and Foremost), 'Complete Guide to Roses' - Ortho, c.2004
'Foolproof Guide To Growing Roses' - Field Roebuck, c.2001
'The Encyclopedia Of Roses' - Robert Markley, c.1999
'The Organic Rose Garden' - Liz Druitt, c.1996
'Growing Beautiful Roses' - Barbara Wilde, c.2003

For Rose Porn:

(The best rose porn I have ever seen), 'Roses, Old Roses And Species Roses' - photos by, Paul Starosta - text by, Elonore Cruse, c.1998
(The 2nd best rose porn...), 'The Rose, An Illustrated History' - Peter Harkness, c.2003
(The 3rd best rose porn...), 'Best Rose Guide' - Roger Phillips and Martyn Rix, c.2004
'Botanica's Roses' c.2000
'Foolproof Guide To Growing Roses' - Field Roebuck, c.2001
'The Rose Bible' - Rayford Clayton Reddell, c.1998
'Landscape With Roses' - Jeff Cox, c.2002
'Enjoying Roses' - Ortho Books, c.1992
'Encyclopedia Of Roses' - American Rose Society, c.2003
'David Austin's English Roses' - David Austin, c.1996
'100 Old Roses For The American Garden' - Clair G. Martin, c.1999
'Roses' - Andrew Mikolajski, c.2000

For Help Deciding Which Roses To Buy: (rose forum is the best)

'Encyclopedia Of Roses' - American Rose Society, c.2003
'100 Old Roses For The American Garden' - Clair G. Martin, c.1999
'Best Rose Guide' - Roger Phillips and Martyn Rix, c.2004
'Complete Guide to Roses' - Ortho, c.2004
'Growing Beautiful Roses' - Barbara Wilde, c.2003
'Foolproof Guide To Growing Roses' - Field Roebuck, c.2001
'Botanica's Roses' c.2000
'The Rose Bible' - Rayford Clayton Reddell, c.1998
'Roses, A Celebration' - Wayne Winterrowd, c.2003
'Landscape With Roses' - Jeff Cox, c.2002

For The Successful Growing Of Roses:

'The Encyclopedia Of Roses' - Robert Markley, c.1999 - (I would put this book up against any other.)
'Foolproof Guide To Growing Roses' - Field Roebuck, c.2001
'Enjoying Roses' - Ortho Books, c.1992
'Growing Roses In Cold Climates' - Jerry Olson and John Whitman, c.1998
'Growing Beautiful Roses' - Barbara Wilde, c.2003
'The Organic Rose Garden' - Liz Druitt, c.1996
'Complete Guide to Roses' - Ortho, c.2004

For The History Of Roses:

'The Rose, An Illustrated History' - Peter Harkness, c.2003
'Foolproof Guide To Growing Roses' - Field Roebuck, c.2001
'Roses, A Celebration' - Wayne Winterrowd, c.2003
'100 Old Roses For The American Garden' - Clair G. Martin, c.1999
'David Austin's English Roses' - David Austin, c.1996
'Enjoying Roses' - Ortho Books, c.1992
'Encyclopedia Of Roses' - American Rose Society, c.2003 (brief history)
'Roses, Old Roses And Species Roses' - photos by, Paul Starosta - text by, Elonore Cruse, c.1998
'The Rose Bible' - Rayford Clayton Reddell, c.1998
'Complete Guide to Roses' - Ortho, c.2004 (brief history)
'The Encyclopedia Of Roses' - Robert Markley, c.1999 (brief history)

Rose Literature:

'The Rose, An Illustrated History' - Peter Harkness, c.2003
'David Austin's English Roses' - David Austin, c.1996
'Roses, A Celebration' - Wayne Winterrowd, c.2003
'100 Old Roses For The American Garden' - Clair G. Martin, c.1999



I have a very good book about the breeders of roses---

'The Makers of Heavenly Roses' by Jack Harkness

A few other books that I recently read and enjoyed-----

'Passion for Roses'---Peter Beales

'The Search For Lost Roses'---Thomas Christopher this is a great book---it reads like a novel

'Diary of a rose Lover'---Henri Delbard-----thanks to Carla and Ann

'The Organic Rose Garden'---Liz Druitt

Good Luck and let me know if you enjoy these books.



Here are a few that I use:




clipped on: 10.10.2006 at 09:54 am    last updated on: 10.10.2006 at 09:54 am

RE: Question to East Coasters (no spray) (Follow-Up #15)

posted by: zeffyrose_pa6b7 on 10.03.2006 at 10:27 am in Antique Roses Forum

Hi Olga-----

Thanks for this list-----I will take a stroll around my weedy garden and try to make a list of the roses that look the best in my neglected garden.

Of course my precious Zeffy does look pretty bad at times but I still love her.

The one bush ( the oldest and the mother of all the others) holds her leaves pretty well ( can't explain that)-----

JUst off the top of my head without looking--


Viking Queen

Carefree delight

Carefree Beauty

Clotilde Soupert(the little baby that Patrick sent me)


Ghislaine de Felgonde (very young but doing great)

MacCartney---( a great HT)

I have to check the rest.



clipped on: 10.03.2006 at 03:11 pm    last updated on: 10.03.2006 at 03:11 pm

RE: Question to East Coasters (no spray) (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: rjlinva on 10.02.2006 at 05:30 am in Antique Roses Forum


I don't spray at all. Here are some of the roses that seem to be doing exceptionally well for me...(I didn't include any on your list..)

Comtesse du Cayla Puerto Rico (Bermuda rose)
Mme. Antoine Mari Jefferson Rose
Amazone Isabella Sprunt
Climbing Pinkie The Mayflower
Apricot Nectar Mme. de la Sombrueil
Sombrueil (aka Colonial White) General Kleber
Amanda Patenaude Erfurt
Mrs. B.R. Cant Spice
SDLM Climbing Clotilde Soupert Cl.
Moonlight Benjamin Britten
Daybreak White Cap The Bishop (I LOVE THIS ROSE) Clair Matin
William Lobb Henri Martin

The list goes on...
Surprisingly, neither my Awakening nor my Darlow's Enigma are of the better looking roses for me..yet..I think they will outgrown this, once they get more roots.



clipped on: 10.03.2006 at 03:10 pm    last updated on: 10.03.2006 at 03:10 pm

Question to East Coasters (no spray)

posted by: olga_6b on 10.01.2006 at 08:35 am in Antique Roses Forum

Hi, everybody. I am gradually moving toward no spray garden, but unfortunately I am very picky. If a rose is loosing more then 10% its leave or keeps its leaves but is still spotted from top to the bottom, I am not considering it resistant. Now it is a good time to evaluate which roses managed to swim through the summer with dignity.
So, if you live in MD, VA, PA, NJ,etc (Zones 6-7) and have no spray experience please share with me what are your healthiest roses. I know further South or deeper inland (TN, GA, etc)people have very different BS strains or BS conditions, so they can grow a lot of southern roses and keep them reasonalbly healthy no spray (teas, chinas, etc).
Unfortunately this is not the case for most of them here. But still please share your experience too.

I do spray majority of my roses, but from the roses I don't spray here are my most healthy this year (no BS):
Darlows Enigma
Knock Out
Konigin von Danemark
Alba Semi-plena
Canary Bird
Belle Isis
Tuscany Superb
Roseraie de l'Hay
Jenny Duval
Alice Viena
Paul Transon

Second group that is not so healthy like first, but still looks decent (below 25% BS this year no spray)
R. moschata
La Belle Sultane
La Vesuve
Belle de Crecy (can be in the first group)
Perle d'Or
Cecille Brunner
Captain John Ingram
Earth Song
Carefree Sunshine
Morning Has Broken
New Dawn
Jaques Cartier

Thank you very much.



clipped on: 10.03.2006 at 03:08 pm    last updated on: 10.03.2006 at 03:08 pm

RE: Tips for growing roses in a RRD enviroment? (Follow-Up #15)

posted by: anntn6b on 09.28.2006 at 09:06 am in Roses Forum

What kind of weather did you have midsummer? And how did it differ from previous years?
My worst losses were the year that it got so hot that the soil was hot after dark and the nights weren't cool. This year wasn't that hot here, and so far I have had a much smaller problem.
Avid and floramite even with Stirrup haven't been proven for the eriophyid mite that transmits RRD. I do know someone locally who has been using Avid plus Cygon 2E and her RRD problem isn't anywhere near as bad as it was the first two years. But is it the miticide, or is the difference that her husband killed lots of multiflora in fields near their gardens?
My own RRD disease pressures are higher now than ever before, based on the number of RRD sick multiflora plants along US 11W four miles northwest of my gardens (and upwind of my gardens.) So...I'm hoping that the slightly cooler summer nights are signficant, but time will tell us more. We just have to do the best we can, under the circumstances.



clipped on: 09.28.2006 at 05:06 pm    last updated on: 09.28.2006 at 05:07 pm

RE: Good step-by-step instructions for propagating from cuttings? (Follow-Up #11)

posted by: george_mander on 08.02.2006 at 04:34 pm in Rose Propagation Forum

Sorry everyone,
The link for my "Own Root Cuttings" did not work.
There was an l missing at the end.
Here it is again and it should work now.
George Mander

Here is a link that might be useful: Own Root Cuttings with 30 images


clipped on: 09.19.2006 at 11:37 am    last updated on: 09.19.2006 at 11:37 am

RE: Good step-by-step instructions for propagating from cuttings? (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: HoovB on 08.01.2005 at 08:20 pm in Rose Propagation Forum

Here's a good page:

Here is a link that might be useful: Mel Hulse on rose propagation


clipped on: 09.19.2006 at 11:35 am    last updated on: 09.19.2006 at 11:35 am

RE: bone meal (phosphorus) (Follow-Up #8)

posted by: mike_rivers on 09.10.2006 at 07:22 am in Antique Roses Forum

Malcolm, I'm no soil chemist either, so I can only make guesses about the answer to your question. After thinking about it a couple of days, my best guess would be the following:

The superphosphates tend to be deactivated by reaction with additional calcium in alkaline soils and by reaction with iron or aluminum in acidic soils. Deactivation by either route is minimized by minimizing soil contact using band application.

Bone meal, on the other hand, is already, in effect, deactivated by calcium. I think further deactivation by reaction with either iron or aluminum is probably not something worth worrying about. The only way to know for sure would be for some soil scientist to do the experiment - banding vs. soil dispersion of bone meal - and I think that is unlikely to happen simply because bone meal is not an important phosphorous fertilizer in modern agriculture.


clipped on: 09.10.2006 at 09:03 am    last updated on: 09.10.2006 at 09:03 am

RE: bone meal (phosphorus) (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: malcolm_manners on 09.08.2006 at 08:32 am in Antique Roses Forum

Mike, I agree with your chemistry, but there's another, additional factor, which would cause me to put bone meal in lumps -- and that is the Fe- and Al- based phosphate adsorption sites in many soils. I have no quantitative data to support this, but it makes chemical and physical sense to me that by having the P source in a lump, where plant roots can grow through it, one has avoided some of that adsorption, so that what small amount of solubility is there from the bone meal becomes available to the roots more easily than would well-distributed, finely-ground particles, closely surrounded by Fe/Al-based soil particles. I admit this is an assumption on my part -- I am a chemist and horticulturist, but not specifically a soils chemist.

Another thing to consider is that bone meal is not pure calcium phosphate. It normally contains significant amounts of N (3-4% predominantly in the form of proteins) and other bone components. This should allow some bacterial activity in the lump that would not be occurring in pure calcium phosphate. Again I have no quantitative proof that that would enhance root-uptake of phosphate from the mass, but it should at least create quite a network of micropores in the mass, as the other components are oxidized out of it, and that would greatly increase the solid calcium phosphate surface area exposed to soil solution within the lump.

So I'm wondering, is there reason to believe that adsorption sites and biodegradation of bone can/should be ignored when considering how to distribute bone meal?



clipped on: 09.10.2006 at 09:03 am    last updated on: 09.10.2006 at 09:03 am

RE: bone meal (phosphorus) (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: mike_rivers on 09.07.2006 at 09:08 pm in Antique Roses Forum

If your plants do need phosphorous, it seems reasonable to apply it at the root zone because all forms of phosphorous are almost immobile in the soil. It also seems to be the experience of generations of rose growers that phosphorous does not stimulate growth late in the season and can be applied at almost any time of year. But, just to quibble a little, I see no advantage to applying bone meal in lumps or bands as is done with the superphosphates. Superphosphates are made by converting the very insoluble rock phosphate (calcium phosphate) into the more soluble superphosphates (calcium hydrogen phosphates). The greater water solubility of the super phosphates makes them more plant available. The superphosphates are slowly converted by chemical reaction with the soil back to the less soluble and less plant available rock phosphate. This undesirable process can be slowed down by minimizing contact of the superphosphate with the soil, which is exactly what lumping or banding does. But Bone meal is essentially calcium phosphate to begin with, and I can't see any advantage to applying it in lumps. Actually, given its low solubility, I would think bone meal might be best applied by the time-honored method of mixing it thoroughly with the soil, at the root zone. Now, having made my little point, if my plants needed phosphorous, and if it seemed to me that I should apply bone meal at the root zone, I might well decide that poking holes and pouring the stuff in would be the easiest way to go and that's probably exactly what I would do.


clipped on: 09.10.2006 at 09:03 am    last updated on: 09.10.2006 at 09:03 am

RE: bone meal (phosphorus) (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: malcolm_manners on 09.07.2006 at 04:14 pm in Antique Roses Forum

bone meal can be used any time, and a single application will last several years. It needs to be dug into the soil, into the root zone. I'd recommend poking a few holes with a shovel handle or broom handle, a foot or so deep, and pouring the bone meal into them, then filling in the hole with soil. Phosphate sources work better in lumps, than they do spread out in the soil.


clipped on: 09.10.2006 at 09:02 am    last updated on: 09.10.2006 at 09:02 am

RE: Can cuttings be frozen and started in spring? (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: chefcdp on 09.04.2006 at 12:45 am in Roses Forum

Well, you can certainly gather hardwood cuttings after the plants have gone dormant and keep the cuttings overwinter and pot them up to root in the spring. Last fall in late November, maybe early December, I wrapped cuttings in paper towels that were dampened with a weak hydrogen peroxide solution and packaged them in Ziplock bags.

I kept the bags in the vegetable crisper in my refrigerator. All of the cuttings looked to be in good shape by spring. Almost all had calused and a few had even begun to grow little hair like roots.

I doubt that you could keep live softwood cuttings alive for that length of time. However dormant cuttings will stay dormant at refrigerator temperatures for extended periods of time.

If you think about it, storing dormant cuttings in the refrigerator is little different than burying the cuttings in the ground over winter which is how I have usually handled them.




clipped on: 09.06.2006 at 01:53 pm    last updated on: 09.06.2006 at 01:53 pm

RE: Can cuttings be frozen and started in spring? (Follow-Up #13)

posted by: chefcdp on 09.06.2006 at 01:32 am in Roses Forum

A few more thoughts on storing dormant hardwood cuttings in the vegetable crisper. I had some concerns about sealing the cuttings in the Ziplock bags, so I did a control with a bundle of cuttings wrapped in paper towels and placed in a plastic bag (from the produce section at the grocery) and just rolled up.

The rolled up bag needed to have the paper re-dampened mid winter. The cuttings in the rolled bag survived, but were not as plump as the ones in the sealed bags. The cuttings in the sealed bags stayed as good looking as when they were cut. They only had a chance to "breathe" when I unwrapped them a couple of times to see how they were doing.

The paper towels were just lightly damp, not at all wet. The cuttings had a bath in a Consan 20 solution and a rinse in clear water before being wrapped in the peroxide paper towels.

In other propagating adventures, I have sanitized cuttings with weak household bleach solutions or weak hydrogen peroxide solutions or Consan 20. I haven't noticed any difference and some have great luck without any disinfectant treatment. However, if I had money riding on the outcome, I would use the Consan because it is labeled for that use and the directions are right there on the bottle so I don't have to try and remember how much bleach to put in the bucket.




clipped on: 09.06.2006 at 01:53 pm    last updated on: 09.06.2006 at 01:53 pm

No Growth - possible causes (Follow-Up #9)

posted by: anntn6b on 08.23.2006 at 11:08 am in Roses Forum

The Morden Blush roots come that way probably due to their descent from R. laxa. I have a laxa from Skinner's nursery.
DH tordoned a patch of Poke Weed that came up inside a Dortmund. It killed the Poke and didn't touch the Dortmund nor did it bother Betty Bland four feet away. But laxa, eight feet away had apparently gotten into that part of the garden and picked up Tordon and lost 3/4 of the canes. It will survive, but not well for a couple of years.

I think you're getting root to root transmission, but of what.
RRD doesn't move that way in most rose beds, nor does it root spread that fast. (Exception, I've got/had a R.multiflora platyfilla that had two RRD sick canes three weeks ago, we cut them off, and now it's elsewhere; normally this spread within a plant takes months or years (Nearly Wild), not weeks. RRD does make the skinny leaves, but they get worse and the growth is rapid.
The skinny leaves also appear with Round-up and 2,4d damage, but again it's fast. On a limb, is there any chance that someone is trying corn gluten meal as a weed suppressant in that bed? CGM as bioherbicide is an Iowa thing (it didn't hurt the roses I tried it on, but degrades in my rains too fast to be useful).
Has anyone killed a tree nearby or cut a tree and treated the emergent shoots with tordon, conc Roundup or 2,4d?

Or, if all the roots are in tact on the roses you dug out this a.m., look to Verticillium wilt. I think that's what Flet. bacterienne translates to. And there are some broad spectrum fungicides for Verticillium- and I expect soil treatment would be needed as well.

The other thing to look for (similar vein) is Oak Root fungus, the one that's been such a problem in California, and that might have arrived on nursery stock from CA.

This is what I've been able to remember so far.
Much luck,


clipped on: 08.23.2006 at 11:36 am    last updated on: 08.23.2006 at 11:36 am

RE: Cygon going off the market? (long) (Follow-Up #4)

posted by: anntn6b on 07.31.2006 at 01:31 pm in Antique Roses Forum

Take the spraying arguments into another thread.
What this thread is about is dealing with RRD, which kills roses and is incurable.
With the withdrawal of Cygon, the questions that arise include how to handle a RRD sick rose bush when it has to be rogued out.
One low tech alternative is to spray the rose (all surfaces) with high holding hairspray. That's how the scientists take plants back to the lab so they can do population counts.
Another is to engulf the rose with a really big bag, and then cut the canes off, then go after the roots.
Personally, I don't worry about the mites in cold weather. Cold being under 60F. But in these temps, I'd go with hair spray and I do carefully spray the closest canes to the sick rose with Cygon.
Another much harder to answer question is- how do we kill the mite vectors?
We may not be able to.
Yesterday I went to the ag library and did a bunch of searches in sci literature. There is precious little in the way of new acaracides/miticides for eriophyid mites in the last six years. What I was searching for was anything that might indicate broad spectrum applicability to eriophyids- much less individual general of eriophyids. The info isn't there in recent papers.
Dr. Jim Amrine has published that he's observed predaceous mites and predaceous thrips going after the RRD-vector mites. So...if you had a thrip problem, and it's gone via native beneficials, then you may have some of the predators in place.
Also, there are wind patterns in gardens; some spots can't grow roses without RRD mites dropping there (this is, of course, in areas where there is RRD disease pressure). In other locations, you can increase wind speeds by design, and make the roses less prone to RRD.
We cannot have totally RRD-free rose gardens; we can minimize the problem.


clipped on: 07.31.2006 at 05:14 pm    last updated on: 07.31.2006 at 05:14 pm

RE: Weed Killer (Follow-Up #14)

posted by: lovesroses on 07.31.2006 at 06:44 am in Roses Forum

Fluazifop-p-butyl (Ortho's Grass Be Gone; Fusilade and Fertilome) have always been considered very safe for weed and grass eradication in garden beds since it's a "selective" herbicide whereas Round Up (glyphosate) is a "non-selective" herbicide, i.e. it is not selective, and will kill anything that comes in contact with it. I play with fire periodically in the garden beds using Round Up, and haven't killed any roses but have harmed their health. So I usually stick to fluazifop as it can be used around ornamentals and not damage them. And I've found that Round Up isn't any more effective than fluazifop on some pretty stubborn weeds/grasses, so whichever is used, sometimes repeat applications are necessary.



clipped on: 07.31.2006 at 01:47 pm    last updated on: 07.31.2006 at 01:47 pm

Minis Dying Outdoors--Tips from EXPERT (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: george_mander on 07.30.2006 at 12:51 am in Miniature Roses Forum

Was just going to tell you : "DO NOT" fertilize a newly planted rose" and then I saw that diane_nj was suggesting the same. You might have leaf burn.

I have just written an article for my web-site about planting and growing minis. It will be edited and then added to my articles page within a month.
Here the unedited version :

Tips for planting and growing Miniature Roses

# 1 : When buying NEW minis, which come out of the greenhouse. "Do not" expose them to direct sunlight right away as you may burn the foliage.
Keep in the shade for at least a week and then gradually give them 2 to 3 hrs of sun a day for a week to 10 days. Then you can put them in "FULL" sun.

# 2 : Planting. (Canada and northern US States)
When you buy a new mini in a 3 to 4 inch pot, do not plant them into the ground right away !!! If those small pots are full of new roots, I cut appr. 1/4 inch off the bottom of the root ball with a steak knife. This way new fine hair roots will develop really fast.

I first transplant mine into one gallon pots. After 3 to 4 months the one gall. pot may have roots right down to the bottom. If roots go around in circles its time to plant into 2 gall. pots. Again, I cut about 1/2 inch off the bottom with a large steak knife. From the 1 gall. one could plant them into the ground, but I prefer to leave them in the 2 gallon pots for the first season.

Years ago I did some experiments with my own minis and those I grew on in pots were 2 to 3 times larger after one season compared to those which were planted right into the ground.
Up north the ground never warms up until late May compared to the pots where the soil warms up fast with just a few hrs. of sun a day.
In the southern & hot US states it will be OK to plant right into the ground.

# 3 : Fertilizing. "DO NOT" use chemical fertilizer for potted roses !!!
My friend Tony and I have both killed a number of minis in one and two gallon pots, using the fertilizer we use in the rose beds. Too much nitrogen will damage or kill the roots and the plants may die.

Use slow release Osmocote.
Or, water soluble fertilizer can also be used. If it calls for a teaspoon for 4 litres or 1 gall. of water use a level spoon, but "NEVER" a heaped one. As this is also a chemical, use a bit less as too much may damage the roots but may not kill the plant. Again I am speaking of my own experience.

# 4 : Needless to say, water, water, water !!!
Never let your pots dry out as they have to be watered more often than roses in the ground.
Good luck George Mander

Here is a link that might be useful: Roses of Excellence


clipped on: 07.31.2006 at 09:04 am    last updated on: 07.31.2006 at 09:04 am

Thoughts on a Flexible Program for Blackspot Control

posted by: mike_rivers on 07.09.2006 at 12:37 pm in Roses Forum

For most of the years that Ive grown roses, the word on blackspot control was that fungicides must be sprayed preventatively. The idea was that the bs fungus dwells inside the leaf where it is invulnerable to attack and, once established, an infection is free to pump out countless numbers of spores. It is now known that the original assumption is false and that several modern fungicides, most notably tebuconazole, efficiently destroy an established infection of bs. Armed with this information, perhaps it is possible to design a more efficient and flexible approach to bs control.

Suppose that at some point in the season you spray your garden with both tebuconazole and an efficient and instantaneous sporacide and suppose you manage to kill all established infections and all spores. What would happen? Well, any new infection would have to come from spores traveling in from outside your garden. Exactly how bs spores manage to travel is still an open question but nearly everyone agrees that they have exceptionally poor mobility. In bs Hades, you might see a new infection in 3 weeks or so (tebuconazole is supposed to remain effective for 2 weeks and it takes about 1 week for a new infection to become established and visible). In bs Purgatory, where I live, I suspect you might not see a new infection for a month or more. In many cases, I suspect only a few bushes would be infected and then only on a few leaves. You would then have the option of spraying your entire garden with the combo spray, or you might choose to spray only the infected plant and perhaps its immediate neighbors, or you might simply choose to wait until the infection becomes objectionable and then spray. The point is that you would have flexibility and, in gardens like mine, you might have to spray only a few times in an entire season.

One key to success with this plan lies in identifying an "efficient and instantaneous" sporacide. Tebuconazole, itself, kills spores, but I suspect only during the act of germination. Rosemania describes Mancozeb as a spore killer, but I have seen no evidence that it operates efficiently and instantaneously or at any point prior to germination. The thing is, you don't want to kill spores one at a time as they germinate, the law of averages will get you. You want to wipe them all out at once. There are lots of things that do kill spores on contact. Horticultural oils, sulfite solutions and lime/sulfur probably do so, but I think the really efficient all-around sporacides are the things we use to disinfect pruners, things like hydrogen peroxide, bleach or alkylammonium salts (the stuff thats in Lysol household disinfectants). I wouldnt want to spray bleach, maybe I might spray hydrogen peroxide in dilute form (ZeroTol is a commercial hydrogen peroxide-based fungicide) but I think the Lysol stuff sounds most appealing (Consan Triple Action 20 or Physan 20 are commercial sources labeled for roses).

A side question: If these things can wipe out all the spores in your garden, why don't people use them now? It's because they have almost no residual effect and because they don't kill established infections. Under the old assumptions for bs control, it was pointless to wipe out all the spores in your garden in one instant if the established infections could pump out billions of new spores in the next instant.

Returning to reality for a moment, it's actually hard to test a bs program to see how well it's working. I suspect, at best, that in bs Hades, all you might really accomplish is replacing Mancozeb with ZeroTol or with Consan. Even that might have some advantages in cost and safety. Mancozeb is a suspected carcinogen while ZeroTol and Consan are not. ZeroTol is probably eligible for organic certification and the ingredients in Consan are used in household cleansers - at about ten times the concentration used for roses.


clipped on: 07.10.2006 at 03:55 pm    last updated on: 07.10.2006 at 03:56 pm

RE: My first insect assasination mission: aphids! (Follow-Up #4)

posted by: mike_rivers on 07.09.2006 at 10:39 pm in Roses Forum

If hosing them off works, I'd keep doing it. If your zone 5 is anything like my zone 5, the aphids come for a week or two and then go away, maybe to return much later in the season. Part of the reason for their departure is probably predators but also roses have their own defence against aphids. Aphid feeding causes the rose to increase the concentration of a certain bitter phenolic compound, catechin, in its sap. This reaches a climax about when the sepals on the buds open and at that point, the aphids take off.

Here is a link that might be useful: Catechin and Aphids and Roses


clipped on: 07.10.2006 at 11:24 am    last updated on: 07.10.2006 at 11:24 am

RE: Mycorrhizae - Has anyone tried it? (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: mike_rivers on 06.20.2006 at 10:54 am in Roses Forum

I tried it with Rosemania's product a couple of years ago and inoculated all my roses when I moved them to a larger bed. It was fun, but it's like all such things: you really can't tell without controls and setting up meaningful controls for testing the benefits of mycorrhizae would take some really serious planning.

I have two thoughts on the matter - and I am hardly an expert on this:

1) If conditions are right, the mycorrhizae will come, no help from you is necessary.

2) The right conditions are: essentially no fertilizer. If you fertilize, the rose finds that it doesn't need the mycorrhizae and it ends the partnership. What it comes down to is, I think, you can grow surprisingly good roses when you give them no care at all - and that's the mycorrhizae's contribution. You can grow even better roses if you give them lots of care - but then you won't have mycorrhizae.


clipped on: 06.20.2006 at 11:08 am    last updated on: 06.20.2006 at 11:08 am