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RE: Everything I Wanted to Know About Drawers... (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: angela12345 on 02.02.2013 at 02:03 pm in Kitchens Forum

I have posted this other places before, but I am going to try to consolidate it *all* in one place.

My kitchen cabinets from UltraCraft are semi-custom. LOVE them. They are Frameless cabinets that allow size modifications in 1/16" increments to height, width, and depth (or all 3) at no additional cost. So, go ahead and make your uppers 13" or 14" deep for those extra large mixing/salad bowls and charger plates, and maximize your storage space for example storing glasses 4 deep instead of 3 deep. Have deeper base cabinets. Make your toekick slightly shorter so you have an extra inch or two for more drawers height. Cut down on the fillers you need by making your cabinets the exact width you need them, instead of being forced to choose from 3" increments. I like that all my uppers are flat across the bottom (no frame/dividers between cabinets), so I could install one long plugmold and one long under cabinet light, then hide it all with lightrail at the front. Also, standard is Blum full extension soft close drawer glides, soft close doors, no charge for finished sides (like end of cabinet run), all dovetail drawers with fully captured bottoms, and bunches of other stuff is standard. 100 year warranty. Yep, I LOVE them !!!

Cabinet Decisions - I emailed this part to a friend recently, so am copying here ...
1. One of the first things to decide is what cabinet door overlay you want. Inset doors or overlay doors ? Inset doors sit inside of the cabinet box frame rather than attached to the front of the cabinet box. Overlay is further broken down into traditional overlay, partial / modified overlay, and full overlay and determines how much of the cabinet box/frame behind the door you want to show. The hinges can be exposed or concealed for all overlay styles except full overlay which only allows for concealed hinges. The overlay you choose will automatically knock out some cabinet options and cabinet mfgs who may not make that type of cabinet. (My cabinets are full overlay)
See ...
And ...

2. Then you want to decide on the cabinet boxes ... framed or frameless ? Some mfgs only make one or the other, but not both, so this will knock out other mfgs. Framed cabinets have a frame on the face of the cabinet box that the doors attach to and allows for inset doors as well as all 3 overlay styles (traditional, partial, and full overlay). On frameless, the doors attach directly to the cabinet box sides instead of a face frame. Frameless are typically full overlay, but inset is also possible. I think a small partial overlay is possible on frameless if you are using semi-custom or custom cabinets - you would order slightly smaller doors so a little of the cabinet box would show. Traditional overlay is not possible on frameless because the cabinet box sides are not wide enough to show the traditional 1"-2" of the face frame. (My cabinets are frameless)
See ... BOX - construction.asp

The disadvantage of framed is you give up useable space in drawers/pullouts and ease of access on cabinets with doors. This is because the drawer or pullout has to clear the face frame that goes around the opening, so they are narrower from side to side and also shallower from top to bottom. In a small kitchen, the extra useable space from frameless could make a big difference. Estimates say frameless gives 10-15% more space, so 100 inches of framed would be 110 inches in frameless. To me, an extra 10 inches of drawer space is huge, especially when you don't have much to begin with !! Frameless cabinets with doors also offer easier access - there is no face frame creating a 1-2" obstruction on the left, right, and top inside the cabinet doors, also there is typically no center stile between double doors in frameless.

For full overlay doors, there is very little difference in the looks of framed vs frameless. From an exterior appearance standpoint, these cabinets will basically look alike. Because the doors are full overlay, you don't see much or any of the frame and would have to open the door or drawer to see if the cabinet was framed or frameless. For inset doors, the framed cabinets would have a wider frame around the door than the frameless cabinet would.

In the below two pics, the cabinet on the left is framed, and the one on the right is frameless. Looking only at the size of the opening, see how the drawer for frameless is wider from left to right and also has more open space from top to bottom. The useable drawer space is a couple inches more in each direction in the frameless. If they both had the same size full overlay exterior drawer face on them, they would look alike from the exterior. You would not be able to see the useable interior space until you opened the drawer. If they both had inset doors, the framed cabinets would have a much wider "frame" around the door and drawer.

3. The third thing to consider is the cosmetics ... the door style you like, the drawer style (slab/flat/plain drawer front or drawer front that matches your door style), as well as wood species (cherry, oak, maple, etc), and stain or paint colors, glazing, distressing, finish/sheen, etc. (My cabinets are slab drawer, raised panel door, cherry with a chestnut stain, no additional finishes or glazes)
This website shows just a few of the different door styles available ... DOOR - style.asp

4. The fourth thing to consider is stock cabinets vs semi-custom vs custom cabinet mfgs. Stock cabinets are available in 3" width increments (cabinets have to be width of 12", 15", 18", etc), filler strips fill in gaps between cabinets and wall or appliances, you have to choose from the heights and depths they offer, and there are very few options available, which can be pretty pricey to add on. Semi-custom cabinets vary by manufacturer in what customizations and options they offer, but they offer many more options than stock and allow sizing modifications. With custom cabinets, there should be no limitations including drawings for non-standard items, custom molding profiles, door styles, alternate wood species, custom stains & finishes, construction, accessories and options. (My cabinets are semi-custom)

5. Finally, you want to consider the cabinet construction. Not that this is the least important ! It is one of the most important things. Pretty much all the other stuff is just the "pretty" stuff, LOL. This has to do with how well the cabinets are made - are the drawers stapled, dowelled, glued, dovetail ? What materials are the cabinets made of ? etc, etc.

Drawer depths
My bases are 24" deep bases and are all 20" useable interior from front to back. I'm pretty sure I could have (and definitely should have!) requested the drawers be an extra 1-2 inches deep to fill up the inside of the cabinet. I *think* the full extension glides would not have pulled out that extra inch or so, but I could have lived with that !! I could have fit my 8qt stock pots 2 deep front to back in the drawer instead of having to offset them slightly in the drawer if I had even an extra 1/2".

Some people choose to have their base cabinets deeper from front to back for a number of different reasons, for example to make the front of the cabinet even with the front of the refrigerator so the standard fridge looks like a built in/counter depth. Or they may want a larger countertop work surface. This can be accomplished by using deeper base cabinets or by using standard 24" deep bases and installing them a couple inches out from the wall then covering the full space with the countertop material. If you want to do this and order deeper bases, be sure to specify the drawers are deeper from front to back as well ! Some mfgs will still only install the standard depth drawer even though the cabinet box is larger.
(in pics below, my two standard $500 ea fridges look counter depth by recessing the wall behind the fridges only)

Drawer Heights
You can get a number of different drawer combinations ... for example two drawer could be 6-24 or 15-15, three drawer could be 6-12-12 or 6-9-15, four drawer could be 6-6-6-12 or 6-6-9-9, five drawer could be 6-6-6-6-6. These are just examples of size combinations ! I have even seen linens in 8 shallow pullouts behind doors in one base cabinet.

The height of my drawer fronts do not line up all the way around the 4 sides of my kitchen, but do line up when you are looking at any one section at a time. I have 2 stacks together that are 6-12-12 separated by a stove. On the opposite corner of the kitchen are 2 stacks that are 6-6-9-9. What helps is that my stacks are caddy-cornered across the kitchen with appliances and base cabinets with doors separating them ... it would be very hard to look in any direction where you could see the "mis-matches" at one time. Some people have drawer stacks right next to each other where the drawer heights do not 'line up' and others have all the drawer bases in their entire kitchen with the exact same horizontal lines all the way around.

My one advice ... find out the interior useable height of your drawers ahead of time. My Ultracraft cabinets are frameless so have more than framed would. They have undermount glides. On the 6-12-12 stacks, the useable interior drawer height is 4, 10.5, 9.5 (top to bottom on stack). Where this becomes an issue ... I wanted to store all of my pans, pots, etc vertical on their edges in the drawers so they wouldn't have to be stacked. The middle 10.5" drawers are tall enough for all of the casserole/baking dishes and pie tins, the roasting pan, and almost all of the pans, pots, and lids to stand on edge (the 9.5" drawers are not tall enough for a couple of those items to stand on edge). Both height drawers are definitely tall enough for all of the big pots (even the 8qt stockpot) that I own, except for the huge "canning" pot which is on the top shelf of one of my 15" deep uppers.

Obviously, neither drawer is tall enough for my 12" pans/skillets to stand on edge (arrggh!). I have really been struggling with how to store these. Right now I have them flat in the bottom of the 9.5" height bottom drawer. Big waste of real estate !! I wish I had a shallower drawer I could put the big skillets in, like 6-6-6-12 so the frying pans were flat in drawers 2 & 3 and the pots were in the bottom drawer. Or even better(?!) if I had made my drawer heights 6-9-15 that would have given me 4, 7.5, 12.5 useable. My tallest 8qt pots are 7" tall, so all of them could have gone in the middle drawer and everything on edge could have gone in the bottom drawer (including the 12" skillets!). Google for images of drawers with pans on edge.

On the other side of the kitchen with the 6-6-9-9 stacks, the useable interior drawer height is 4, 4.75, 6.75, 7 (top to bottom). I use the top 6" drawers all around the kitchen for silverware, spatulas and all the other kitchen gadgets, in-drawer knife block, foil wax paper cling wrap and plastic baggies, potholders, dish towels, etc. All of those things fit with no problem in these drawers including the ladle and the box grater. The 3rd drawer holds all of the tupperware and is the perfect height for this - 6 would have been too shallow and 12 would have been too deep. The bottom drawer is where we currently keep the paper and plastic grocery bags until we carry them for recycling.

(note: the interior drawer heights listed above vary slightly for the bottom two 12" drawers, the top two 6" drawers, and for the bottom two 9" drawers because of an interior cross support and space to clear the granite without scraping at the top)

ALSO: the drawer face to interior useable space ratio will be DIFFERENT depending on if your drawer face is inset, partial overlay, or full overlay, and depending on if you have undermount glides or sidemount glides as catbuilder says above. For example on my 6-6-9-9 four drawer stack ... 1.5" counter + 6 + 6 + 9 + 9 + 4.5" toekick = 36" finished height. My useable heights are 4, 4.75, 6.75, 7 = 22.5" total useable height. I lose 1.25-2.25" useable height for each drawer.
Compare to quiltgirl above inset drawers ... 1.5" counter + 5.5 + 5.5 + 6.25 + 6.25 + 4.5 toekick (assumed) = 29.5". Are her cabinets shorter than mine ? No ! Add in between each of her drawers approx 1.25" face frame. She has undermount glides as well so her useable heights are 4, 4, 4.75, 4.75 = 17.5" total useable height. She only loses 1.5" useable height for each drawer face showing so it sounds like she is losing less, but she is also losing useable height in the face frame between each drawer which is why her total useable space is less.
This is FINE !! Nothing at all against her cabinets. They will be beautiful. And she knew she was going to lose space with the inset when she chose them, but chose to do it because inset is the look she loves.

Drawer widths
The maximum cabinet width my manufacturer will do for drawer bases is 36" wide. I have 4 drawer bases at 21", 32", 17", and 36" wide. The interior useable width of these drawer bases are 18, 29, 14, 33 wide, so 3" less than the exterior width in each.

Going around my kitchen ... first I have a 6" wide pullout broom closet. Next are two 30" wide fridge/top freezers. There are full depth cabinets above the fridges with an adjustable shelf. Then a 24" full height cabinet with pantry space at the top, MW, a single oven, and 6" high drawer under oven (4.5" useable height).

The 21" 3 drawer 6-12-12 is to the left of my stove. Top drawer holds knife block, sharpener, scissors, trivets, potholders. 2nd drawer holds baking dishes on their edge. Bottom drawer is basically empty - it has one 8qt stockpot. If my drawer heights had been 6-9-15 instead (did I say grrrr?), I would have used the middle drawer as a bread drawer and stored the bakeware on edge in the bottom drawer.

Next is the stove (Whirlpool GGE388LXS Electric Range w/Dbl ovens).

The 32" 3 drawer 6-12-12 is to the right of the stove. Top drawer holds spatulas, spoons, ladles, wood spoons, basting brushes, meat thermometer, etc - things that are used at the stove. 2nd drawer holds frying pans, the smaller pots (1qt 2qt 3qt), and lids all on their edges. Bottom drawer holds 8qt pots. Also, the 12" skillets with lids, splatter screens, and griddle are all stacked in one stack flat in bottom of drawer, Grrrrrrr. If they were in the drawer with the other frying pans instead of taking up real estate here, that lone 8qt pot in my other cabinet would have been here with the other pots.

Turn the corner and next is the first dishwasher and then a 36" sink base with Ticor S405D sink (70/30 double bowl). LOVE !!! <3
Turn the corner and next is a 36" wide all door base cabinet (no upper drawer) with full depth adjustable shelves. I use this base cabinet for all my small appliances - blender, beaters, toaster, George Foreman, elec can opener, etc. Next to this base cabinet is the second dishwasher, followed by an 18" prep sink base with a Ticor S815 14x15x8 sink, and an empty space for an ice maker which is where the trash can currently resides.

The 17" 4 drawer stack 6-6-9-9 sits between the trash area/future ice maker and the peninsula and is on the opposite corner of the kitchen from the other drawer bases. The top drawer holds foil, wax paper, cling wrap, plastic baggies, chip clips, and restaurant menus. The 2nd drawer is our "junk" drawer and has some of everything including screwdrivers, clothespins, matches, flashlights, sewing kit, lint brush, etc. The 3rd drawer holds medicine, bandaids, alcohol, peroxide, as well as dish towels and plastic utensils from takeout restaurants in a tub. The bottom drawer is for "tupperware without partners" - bowls and lids with no matches (haha!).

The 36" 4 drawer stack 6-6-9-9 forms the peninsula. The top drawer holds all eating utensils (silverware and kid utensils), serving utensils, chopsticks, handheld can opener, wine opener in a strategically easy-to-access location : ), etc. The 2nd drawer holds all the other kitchen gadgets that aren't to the left and right of the stove like shrimp deveiners, graters, whisks, rolling pin, pizza rolling cutter-thingy, mashers, salad tongs, etc, etc. The 3rd drawer holds tupperware with their matching lids. The bottom drawer holds paper and plastic grocery bags until we carry them for recycling.

I don't like lazy susans or corner cabinets, so in the blind corner is a 26" all door base cabinet that opens out the backside to where the barstools sit.

We went with the same size handle for all of our drawers and also only one handle in the center for all of the drawers, no matter what the width of the drawer. They are 4" wide. We maybe would have used different widths, but the ones we liked in the finish we wanted did not come in a bunch of widths. The cabinet guy said they would look fine and they do. We have slab drawer fronts and the pulls are centered top to bottom and side to side on each drawer. We used round knobs on all doors.

Drawer Organizers
We ordered the drawer divider channels from Lee Valley so we could completely customize the interior of our drawers. They often have free shipping on orders over $40.
Google for images - lots of gardenweb members have used these.
Take inventory of the things you will be storing in the drawers & doors. Measure it all and plan ahead where things will go. From the FAQs that Buehl put together ...

These are not my cabinets ... examples of pans stored vertically ...

This is my kitchen ...
 photo 4-5-11-kitchen.jpg
A note on our kitchen ... this home is a vacation rental oceanfront beach house with 8 bedrooms, 6 baths, that sleeps 26. Hence the 2 fridges, 3 ovens, 2 dishwashers. We had a large portion of our family here at Thanksgiving (32 people) and had like 7 or 8 women working to prepare the feast all at one time. Thank you Gardenweb for helping design a kitchen that WORKS !!!

This post was edited by angela12345 on Sun, Feb 3, 13 at 14:36


clipped on: 03.05.2013 at 06:38 am    last updated on: 03.05.2013 at 06:38 am

RE: Everything I Wanted to Know About Drawers... (Follow-Up #4)

posted by: artemis78 on 02.02.2013 at 12:57 pm in Kitchens Forum

Ours are all custom but a mix of framed inset and frameless, just to keep it interesting. :)

Interior top drawer dimensions:
20" x 14" x 5.5" in a 2-over-2 36" inset framed cabinet, undermount slide [was designed to be 3.5" though--lucky mixup since we like it!]

20" x 15" x 4.25" in a 4-drawer 18" frameless cabinet
20" x 16" x 4.25" in a drawer-over-door 48" frameless corner pullout
20" x 24" x 4.25" in a 3-drawer 27" frameless cabinet

We went as wide as could fit and did deep drawers for all but one. (These four are all we have, plus a sink cabinet and a small 12" door cabinet--small kitchen!) The four-drawer was for potholders, napkins, wraps, etc. and works well. We lined up top drawers in frameless and didn't worry about lower drawers, except that we have Shaker style cabinets and made the rails narrower in the four-drawer bank for aesthetics--cabinetmaker's idea I think. Love it. Inset drawers are on a separate wall so didn't worry about lining them up. Top and inset drawers are all slab. DH wishes the deep inset drawers were Shaker style too but I like them as is.

Two years in, I don't regret any of our drawer choices, if that helps!


clipped on: 03.05.2013 at 06:36 am    last updated on: 03.05.2013 at 06:37 am

Princess Kitchen Second Thoughts

posted by: kimpossible3382 on 11.10.2012 at 10:09 am in Kitchens Forum

I've been stalking around on GW for several months and have gotten so much great advice and so many great ideas! Thank you! The hubby and I are accumulating things for a kitchen remodel we cannot afford to finish all at once right now. He's promised me the kitchen of my dreams with a few caveats.... He HATES white cabinets so we're going with shaker style in the darkest-close-to-black-while-still-brown we can find. Also, marble has been outlawed because I love to cook and bake, but I'm messy and neither of us could handle etching until it reaches the point of patina. So, I got to go with my second choice that I now dream of-- Princess White Quartzite. Our slabs are not as marble-esque as I would have originally liked and they're polished when I wanted honed, but we drove 400 miles just to see them in the one place I could find them in California, so I wasn't leaving without buying. And, they really are beautiful with lots of sparkly quartz patches, wherein lies my dilemma. We were originally going with a honed carrera marble subway backsplash and brought our sample to the granite yard, but the movement and coloration wasn't right with our Princess. The sales lady brought us to the marble tile section where Hubs and I both fell for a statuary subway that had coloration and veining almost dead-on with our slabs.... but I said no when I found out we couldn't get it ANYWHERE in a honed finish. We were then introduced to Thassos white subways, which pick up the beautiful glitter of the quartz in the Princess. I ordered the Thassos honed. My plan was to have our fabricator hone the Princess, but I kinda love it polished now since my original reason for wanting honed was to mimic marble and our stone is not marble, but beautiful in her own right. Should I have gone with polished Thassos? Both polished seems more shiny than I think I would like, but maybe it's the way I should have gone? Who knew kitchen decisions could leave you with nightmares and self-doubt?


clipped on: 11.10.2012 at 03:36 pm    last updated on: 11.10.2012 at 03:36 pm

RE: I would LOVE some glass backsplash advice :) (Follow-Up #12)

posted by: Namarie on 07.15.2012 at 01:32 pm in Kitchens Forum

Love your cabinets! I think you will find it very difficult to find a creamy white glass tile that matches your cabinets. I know this because I went through this same exercise a few months ago when doing my backsplash. I looked at every white glass tile out there and even ordered one. They all seem to have a bit of a green or blue tint to them that isn't that noticeable when you're just looking at one, but when you put it up next to your cabinets and put a bunch of them together, it becomes very noticeable. I ultimately chose a light grayish taupe that blends in with my granite. If you find that a creamy white becomes difficult, you might want to just pull that color out of your granite as well. I ended up in love with mine and I hope you'll find the perfect tile as well for your beautiful cabinets.



clipped on: 11.02.2012 at 09:14 pm    last updated on: 11.02.2012 at 09:15 pm

RE: Please help me design a narrow cabinet!! (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: mamadadapaige on 10.29.2012 at 01:37 pm in Kitchens Forum

madeline- i found it but there were lots of other cool ones too:


clipped on: 10.29.2012 at 07:34 pm    last updated on: 10.29.2012 at 07:34 pm

RE: Are we moving away from tiled backsplashes? (Follow-Up #8)

posted by: grlwprls on 09.11.2012 at 01:39 pm in Kitchens Forum


I used a sheet of glass behind my range in my pretty traditional kitchen in New Orleans. It's just regular tempered glass. The only thing that was a problem is there was the top gap in the clear silicone so that steam from the range could escape if it got behind the glass and durn it if a darn termite didn't get back there instead. So there were drawbacks. But it cleaned up like a breeze.


clipped on: 10.03.2012 at 09:44 am    last updated on: 10.03.2012 at 09:45 am

RE: Pictures of your 3 different colored countertop surfaces? (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: muskokascp on 07.08.2012 at 09:40 am in Kitchens Forum

These are my three materials - white macabus quartzite, original PA soapstone and concrete Caesarstone. The caesarstone is the same colour as the built in cabinet so it all looks like one unit. I was worried about 3 surfaces too but because the counter and cabinets are the same it doesn't stand out and blends just fine. it is hard to get all 3 in one picture but I think you can get the jist of it. I think your three materials will look lovely.





clipped on: 07.10.2012 at 10:23 pm    last updated on: 07.10.2012 at 10:23 pm

RE: Help Please! Vote for the Pull Size (Follow-Up #9)

posted by: clarygrace on 07.08.2012 at 09:17 pm in Kitchens Forum

We used 1 1/4" knobs, much better feel and look to them, even with stacked and glass front cabinets, which we also have. For pulls we used all 6", most of the drawers are 30" or larger. The smaller drawers handled the 6" really well, but 4" would be fine (I waffled over this and went with uniformity). Good luck!


clipped on: 07.09.2012 at 11:40 pm    last updated on: 07.09.2012 at 11:40 pm

RE: Loving it (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: a2gemini on 06.25.2012 at 08:39 pm in Kitchens Forum

Here is the link to the cookie recipe.

My massage therapist says best lemon cookie she has ever eaten!

Lemon Cookies, /Users/a2gemini/Pictures/iPhoto Library/Masters/2012/06/25/20120625-203555/i-r8Wm9fJ-L.jpg


clipped on: 06.29.2012 at 07:11 pm    last updated on: 06.29.2012 at 07:11 pm

RE: Granite is IN! BS help (again?!) (Follow-Up #101)

posted by: beekeeperswife on 05.08.2012 at 07:04 pm in Kitchens Forum

I'm not sure if I suggested this earlier, but did you look at the Mandala Tiles? The Sinu collection in particular. I had suggested the color Stingray to srg215 and she went and got a sample and it was perfect. Besides the Stingray there are other colors, but there is something about that tile, I don't know what it is, but it really works well with BA. Comes in a variety of subway sizes.


Here's a photo of srg215's kitchen I found through a Google search:

I also liked a collection from Daltile. It was a modern tile, available in gloss and matte. The collection is called Modern Dimensions. Lots of colors that work with BA. The sizes are great too.

I struggled with this granite. Even though it goes with many colors, tile is a different beast from paint color.

Have you considered a beveled subway to give the hint of a sparkle when the light hits it. That was one of the cool things about the beveled arabesque tiles. It looked like a patent leather Chanel purse.

Here is a link that might be useful: daltile modern dimensions


clipped on: 06.12.2012 at 10:34 pm    last updated on: 06.12.2012 at 10:34 pm

RE: Granite is IN! BS help (again?!) (Follow-Up #44)

posted by: Namarie on 05.02.2012 at 05:38 pm in Kitchens Forum

I've been following your dilemma as I had similar backsplash problems. In fact, I ordered a tile that I ended up not liking once it came in. Sorry your green crackle didn't work. It was lovely!

Just a suggestion for you . . . I have a granite that has very similar tones to BA, and has quite a bit of variation so I wanted something pretty simple. I ended up with a glass subway. The glass is just "blingy" enough to give it a bit more oomph than a plain ceramic subway, but it is plain enough to not fight with the granite. I went with a light taupe color. I believe the manufacturer was Terra Verre and was very reasonable in price. They also have a similar, slightly darker taupe in large format subways (5x10 or 2x8) and it also comes in matte glass. Here's a picture, though the color is slightly lighter than it is in person (and the picture is fuzzy because it is a cell piture). Best of luck!



clipped on: 06.12.2012 at 10:31 pm    last updated on: 06.12.2012 at 10:31 pm

RE: Flour and Sugar Drawers or Bins (Follow-Up #13)

posted by: ci_lantro on 03.19.2012 at 09:35 am in Kitchens Forum

Several years ago there was a picture floating around the kitchen forum where a GW'er had used stainless steel steam table inserts/ pans (and solid lids) for flour/ sugar, etc. As I recall, these were fitted into a drawer.

These type of pans are also available in clear plastic.

Anyway, I thought it was such a great idea & worth passing on. Hopefully, someone else will remember these and maybe has saved a photo that they can share.


clipped on: 05.21.2012 at 07:01 am    last updated on: 05.21.2012 at 07:01 am

RE: Undercabinet lighting (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: northcarolina on 05.13.2012 at 05:03 pm in Kitchens Forum

Happy Mother's Day to you too! I love my new undercabinet lighting. You will hear from others about LED lights, and I originally wanted them too but my electrician started talking about the number of drivers needed in my non-continuous runs of uppers (or something... it got technical) and the materials cost was going to be higher than I was prepared for. Anyway, I ended up with direct-wire fluorescent bar lights from HD and they are working very, very well for me. They are the instant-on, no-flicker variety and ridiculously inexpensive --- $20 for 24" and $30 for 36". I don't have long stretches of uppers so all the UC lights in my kitchen were under $100. (plus labor.) It was very worth it.

I absolutely did not want UC lights that put off heat (the halogen lights in my range hood once melted marshmallows in the cabinet above), so that limited me to fluorescent and LED. I will tell you, the fluorescents I got from HD came with T5 bulbs in cool white. The main ceiling light and the cans that were in my kitchen already had soft (warm) white CF bulbs, which made a very... interesting... look when they were all turned on together. Everything you read online says to use warm white in a kitchen, but I realized in short order that I really preferred the cool. So I have changed out my couple of cans to "bright white" which is close to the same color temp as the T5's without being blue, and I will be changing out my central fixture bulbs soon. All this is just to tell you that choosing kitchen lighting will make your head explode because just when you think you have it figured out, somebody asks you how many kelvins you want them to be, and then there is one more decision you have no idea how to make. ha! Just make sure you can get a different color if you don't like whatever they come with and you will be fine. I don't think you can really know until you see it in your kitchen with all the cabinets in place. Warm white fluorescent makes my white cabinets look sickly yellow. Maybe warm white LED would be different.

One big difference between LED and fluorescent is the size of the light fixture. My T5 bar lights are about 1.25" tall. If you want a very small or no trim at the bottom of your uppers, spend the money for LED strips because some of those are practically flat. I compromised on my trim (I originally wanted very small trim but ended up with about 1.5" to cover the lights); you will just have to decide whether that matters to you.

Have fun with your kitchen reno! And do, do get undercabinet lighting. It's great. Don't install it too far back since you want to light your work space, not the backsplash. Get bars, not pucks, if you want long continuous light instead of pools (or get lots of pucks close together to avoid that). And don't forget the glass shelves in your cabinets if you get in-cabinet lighting (I don't have that so somebody else can tell you about it).


clipped on: 05.15.2012 at 07:16 am    last updated on: 05.15.2012 at 07:16 am

RE: Gooseneck Faucets- More Splashing? (Follow-Up #11)

posted by: jmcgowan on 05.11.2012 at 08:22 pm in Kitchens Forum

Rococogurl often cites this article, which provides great information.

Here is a link that might be useful: About Kitchen Faucets


clipped on: 05.12.2012 at 11:07 am    last updated on: 05.12.2012 at 11:07 am

Leathered Antique Brown Granite with Calacatta Gold Honed

posted by: KevinMP on 04.26.2012 at 05:51 pm in Bathrooms Forum

Some of you asked for more pictures of the granite I used in my bathroom remodel. I took some additional pictures, and hopefully you'll be able to get a sense of the texture and randomness of the stone. The picture with the hot water handle in it shows a greenish spot, but that spot is actually iridescent and looks like abalone. You'll see what appear to be cracks, but they're a natural part of the stone and are actually veining. It turns some people off, the granite yard told me, but I liked it.

It took me nearly two months to decide on something I could pair with the calacatta gold given that the marble was honed (not polished) and that it's difficult to match calacatta from different lots so every slab I looked at wasn't right. As I said in another post, I was torn between lagos azul and another variety of limestone and leathered antique brown (also called kohiba) and another granite called (allegedly) "titanium" in a leathered finish. I was afraid to use the limestone in the wet applications and the "titanium" was too white and only came in 3 cm slabs (too thick for a shower/tub surround).

Anyhow, antique brown is an awesome stone, and I had a hell of time finding it leathered in 2 cm thickness, but I prevailed eventually.

Here you go










(I'm fixing the caulking when the glass is installed, so no comments about the last picture.)


clipped on: 04.28.2012 at 07:31 am    last updated on: 04.28.2012 at 07:31 am

RE: Undercabinet lighting for my new kitchen (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: Angie_DIY on 04.17.2012 at 11:45 pm in Kitchens Forum

Many, including me, like LED lighting. Your two big decisions there are low-voltage vs. direct-wire, and dimmable vs. non.

(I chose Philips eW Profile direct-wire dimmable.)


clipped on: 04.22.2012 at 11:02 pm    last updated on: 04.22.2012 at 11:02 pm

RE: Faucets: Pull out vs pull down (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: buehl on 04.20.2012 at 10:12 am in Kitchens Forum

Here are some pros/cons. I'm sure others will have things to add as well:

Pull Down

A faucet in which the faucet head pulls straight down toward the bottom of the sink. For example, Kohler Vinnata, Kohler Simplice

  • Pros

    • Supposed to be better "ergonomically." The movement of grabbing the faucet head and pulling down is a more natural movement than grabbing it and pulling it out. It has to do with how you have to grab a hold of the head.

    • Can fit taller pots, pitchers, etc. under them b/c of the high arc

    • Look cool! :-)

  • Cons

    • Not easy to do "hands free" pot filling when a pot is on the counter next to the sink (as opposed to in the sink)

    • If not careful, more splashing than a pullout or non-pull faucet

    • the water has to travel an additional 8 to 10 inches (depending on the height of the faucet) further reduces the pressure

Pull Out

A faucet in which the faucet head pulls out toward you. For example, Kohler Fairfax

  • Pros

    • Easier to fill pots on the counter next to the sink. You just pull the faucet head out, hook it on the side of the pot, and go! Then when full, just move/slide it over, no lifting it out of the sink.

    • Less splashing than a pull down

    • Lower profile, especially useful if you have a faucet in a small area (where a high arc would overwhelm) or if you have limited height to work with (like under a cabinet)

  • Cons

    • Unless you have a very deep sink, cannot fit a tall pot or pitcher under it

Personally, I have both...a pull down at the main/cleanup sink and a pullout at the prep sink. The original reason I got a pullout at the prep sink is that it's in the corner close to the cabinets above and I wanted a lower profile faucet. But now I'm glad I got it as it's easier to fill pots on the side. The other thing it's easier to fill is the bucket for clean water for the fish tank! When it has 5 gallons in it, it's too heavy to easily lift out of the deep sinks we have and then take it's much easier to fill it on the counter and take it off w/o additional lifting up.

Pull Down: Kohler Vinnata
Main Sink Closeup, S405D Ticor Sink  �  K-690 - Kohler Vinnata Faucet  �  K-1894-C - Kohler SD  �  K-8801 - Kohler DuoStrainer  �  K-11352 - Kohler Disposal flange  �  InSinkErator Air Switch

Pullout: Kohler Fairfax
Prep Sink Closeup, K-3345 - Undertone 5-sided UC sink  �  Overall:  17-1/2


clipped on: 04.22.2012 at 10:59 pm    last updated on: 04.22.2012 at 10:59 pm

RE: built in refrigerators - are they worth it (Follow-Up #33)

posted by: laurainlincoln on 04.16.2012 at 07:21 pm in Kitchens Forum

We went with a more integrated model precisely because of that plant-topped paneled fridge with the doors on either side of it! We have 2 archways and the fridge was supposed to go between them (I won't even share how the architect was going to do it, lets just say it was not pretty) - by doing a wall of built ins, it softened the look and helps to prevent the obvious question of "why is there a fridge in the den?" - working with an older house made this all the more challenging! It is not perfect by any means, but it is a ton better with the lower profile fridge. So, for us it was worth it the additional cost.



clipped on: 04.16.2012 at 11:50 pm    last updated on: 04.16.2012 at 11:50 pm

RE: built in refrigerators - are they worth it (Follow-Up #28)

posted by: beaglesdoitbetter on 04.16.2012 at 04:49 pm in Kitchens Forum

eleena maybe this will help:


Integrated fridge (see how you see the toe kick on this one):

FULLY integrated fridge (nothing at all to suggest it is a fridge)

Fully integrated is the most expensive (Subzero, Thermador and Miele all make fully integrated and possibly a few others); integrated is next on the list (I believe, but am not certain, that Liebher is integrated but not fully b/c you can't cover the toe tick?) and then paneled (less expensive than integrated- I think Jenn-Air makes one).

For our kitchen, we absolutely had to have a fully integrated. I would have integrated the oven and microwave if I could have (why doesn't anyone make a paneled oven or micro?)


clipped on: 04.16.2012 at 11:49 pm    last updated on: 04.16.2012 at 11:49 pm

RE: Island less than standard height (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: owls4me on 02.20.2012 at 05:13 pm in Kitchens Forum

I have my island at 34" finished height b/c of rhome410's good advice 2 years ago. My husband is 5'6" and my 2 dd's and I are a smidge on either side of 5'. The island height difference is not visually apparent; no one notices it unless I mention it. It is one of the best things about my kitchen remodel. When I spend a whole day in the kitchen I switch prep areas & change shoes part way through. I no longer end up with a lower backache. We have a prep sink in the island and that too has been fabulous for my family. By lowering the island height rather then a perimeter run it takes the "What to do with the wall cabinets" question out of the mix. We used regular base cabinets and lowered the toekick. No one has ever noticed that or felt a shortage of foot space.

We have 3 stools at the island. I have two thoughts for you based on my experience. My carpenter added an apron piece across the granite to connect the two legs I wanted in the design. It is 3" wide, I would suggest 2" wide if your plan calls for such an apron to provide more thigh space. Also, we found 24" tall stools but as we searched we found many stools we loved at 25.5" tall. Actually, the 24" height is more comfortable for our short legs too. Adjustable height stools are available too but didn't work in our design.


clipped on: 04.14.2012 at 07:54 am    last updated on: 04.14.2012 at 07:54 am

RE: Kitchen design - baking area (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: florantha on 02.20.2012 at 10:02 am in Kitchens Forum

I'm not clear as to the position of baking center.

Is the refrig in a good spot? Or should it go to the left-hand wall in your plan? Think about people leaving stools to walk through your cooking area while you work.

Agree that you can make book storage shallower. Go look hard at your cookbook collection. I'm planning one and I already know that although there are a few big books, most aren't and I shouldn't plan for a lip that catches all kinds of extra clutter along it.

I envy your pet feeding area on the peninsula. Clever! On our peninsula the dog dish would have put Drake the Lab right in the walkpath and all his slobbered mess right underfoot.

Consider moving your large sink toward the top of the picture. This gives you more usable space to left of the range.

We insulated the dishwasher niche to cut down the noise and vibration. You might want to do same--otherwise stool sitters might find dishwasher irritating. Look into E-Dead dense rubber adhesive accoustic insulation from a company in Iowa.

As for the wine storage just wanted to say that our cab maker makes wine storage for a liquor store. We had the little cubby hole style ones in our plans and he said that upright dividers are all that's necessary so skip horizontal ones. We can store two bottles high and 5 bottles across in our little area. (More wine is stored elsewhere under better conditions.) Above our wine are two shallow shelves.
Peninsula End

By the way, be sure that wine is not stored in direct sun or over a heat vent.


Wine storage
clipped on: 04.14.2012 at 07:36 am    last updated on: 04.14.2012 at 07:36 am

RE: deeper than standard upper cabinets, in your face? (Follow-Up #18)

posted by: oldbat2be on 02.17.2012 at 05:48 am in Kitchens Forum

We actually have 18'' uppers not 15''s, just measured. (Details, details....)

I can store my big platters in here (still figuring out organization).

One more comment about the light switches and 30'' CTs, remember they will be 31 1/2'', if you use a 1 1/2'' overhang.


clipped on: 04.14.2012 at 07:25 am    last updated on: 04.14.2012 at 07:25 am

RE: Dark cabinets with light interior, what to do ??? (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: chiefneil on 07.28.2011 at 01:05 am in Kitchens Forum

Found a couple pics for you.
Bianco Romano granite

Pullouts next to rangetop


clipped on: 03.26.2012 at 07:55 pm    last updated on: 03.26.2012 at 07:55 pm

Finished Dark Espresso Maple with White Delicatus

posted by: xc60 on 03.17.2012 at 06:49 pm in Kitchens Forum

We have been in our new home almost a year but due to some changes I made in the kitchen, and some mess ups it took a while to finally be done, yay!!! This forum helped me immensely, so thanks to everyone here at Gardenweb!!!

Here are the details:

Superior Cabinets Maple in Licorice
White Delicatus (White Alaska) granite
Backslpash is split-faced travertine in Picasso
Kentwood Antiqued Maple floors in Pioneer
Blanco Sigranite Precis in Anthracite

Miele Coffee System CVA 4066
Miele Built-in Microwave M8260-1
Kitchenaid 36" French Door Refrigerator Architect Series II KFIS27CXMS
Kitchenaid Dual Fuel Range Architect Series II YKDSS907
Kitchenaid Compactor Architect Series II KUCS30FTSS
Kitchenaid Diswasher Superba Series EQ KUDE70FXSS

Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos
Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos
Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos
Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos
Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos
Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos
Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos
Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos
Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos


clipped on: 03.17.2012 at 09:21 pm    last updated on: 03.17.2012 at 09:21 pm

Vent-a-Hood Cleaning Issues...What Do You Mean?

posted by: beekeeperswife on 02.01.2012 at 08:41 am in Appliances Forum

One thing that repeatedly is said about VAH is how hard it is to clean. Are those people referring to the difficulty of unscrewing those brass screws? For me, those were a deal breaker.


The newer VAHs have a clip system that is used to remove the shield, grease catcher thingy that surrounds the squirrel cages. Really easy.

I've been pricing the VAH and Modern Aire hoods, and the VAH is coming in less.

My vent will be able to go out right through the wall it's mounted on, no snaking the ductwork at all.

I absolutely need to make some decsions in this kitchen project this week.



clipped on: 03.12.2012 at 10:20 pm    last updated on: 03.12.2012 at 10:20 pm

RE: Stone Information and Advice (& Checklists) (Follow-Up #40)

posted by: buehl on 10.21.2008 at 05:12 pm in Kitchens Forum

Sink Undermount Options

There are pros & cons for each type of reveal:

  • Positive Reveal. The sink shows; granite cutout is slightly larger than sink

    • Pros: Easier to clean b/c you can see the gunk and can easily wipe it off (it only gets nasty if you leave it there)

    • Cons: Silicone (caulk?) is visible, but if they use clear you won't see it when it dries

  • Negative Reveal. The granite overhangs the sink; granite cutout is slightly smaller than the sink

    • Pros: You cannot see the gunk buildup or silicone

    • Cons:
      • You cannot see the gunk to clean it.
      • Dirty water/food can splash up & under where you cannot see to clean it. It's difficult to see underneath w/o leaning way over & into the sink.
      • Dishes/glasses have been known to break b/c when you lift them out near the edge of the sink the dish hits the stone counter & can break (or, if the dish wins, the counter could chip...but I'm not sure how likely that is).

  • Zero Reveal or Flush. Sink & granite are flush or even; the granite cutout & sink are the same size

    • Pros:
      • Easier to clean b/c you can see the gunk
      • No platform over or under for the gunk to collect

    • Cons:
      • More difficult to do perfectly
      • Silicone is visible, but if they use clear you won't see it when it dries

You will find proponents of all three types of reveals here...but in the end it's what works best for you.


clipped on: 03.10.2012 at 07:24 am    last updated on: 03.10.2012 at 07:24 am

Stone Information and Advice (& Checklists)

posted by: buehl on 04.14.2008 at 02:56 am in Kitchens Forum

First off, I want to give a big thank-you to StoneGirl, Kevin, Joshua, Mimi, and others (past and current) on this forum who have given us many words of wisdom concerning stone countertops.

I've tried to compile everything I saved over the past 8 months that I've been on this Forum. Most of it was taken from a write-up by StoneGirl (Natural stone primer/granite 101); other threads and sources were used as well.

So...if the experts could review the information I've compiled below and send me comments (here or via email), I will talk to StarPooh about getting this on the FAQ.

Stone Information, Advice, and Checklists:

In an industry that has no set standards, there are many unscrupulous people trying to palm themselves off as fabricators. There are also a number of people with odd agendas trying to spread ill rumors about natural stone and propagate some very confusing and contradictory information. This is my small attempt at shedding a little light on the subject.

Slab Selection:

On the selection of the actual stone slabs - When you go to the slab yard to choose slabs for your kitchen, there are a few things you need to take note of:

  • Surface finish: The finish - be it polished, honed, flamed antiqued, or brushed, should be even. There should be no spots that have obvious machine marks, scratches, or other man made marks. You can judge by the crystal and vein pattern of the stone if the marks you see are man-made or naturally occurring. It is true that not all minerals will finish evenly and if you look at an angle on a polished slab with a larger crystal pattern, you can clearly see this. Tropic Brown would be a good example here. The black spots will not polish near as shiny as the brown ones and this will be very obvious on an unresined slab when looking at an acute angle against the light. The black specks will show as duller marks. The slab will feel smooth and appear shiny if seen from above, though. This effect will not be as pronounced on a resined slab.

    Bottom line when judging the quality of a surface finish: Look for unnatural appearing marks. If there are any on the face of the slab, it is not desirable. They might well be on the extreme edges, but this is normal and a result of the slab manufacturing process.

  • Mesh backing: Some slabs have a mesh backing. This was done at the plant where the slabs were finished. This backing adds support to brittle materials or materials with excessive veining or fissures. A number of exotic stones will have this. This does not necessarily make the material one of inferior quality, though. Quite often, these slabs will require special care in fabrication and transport, so be prepared for the fabricator to charge accordingly. If you are unsure about the slabs, ask your fabricator what his opinion of the material is.

  • Cracks and fissures: Yes - some slabs might have them. One could have quite the discussion on whether that line on the slab could be one or the other, so I'll try to explain it a little.

    • Fissures are naturally occurring features in stone. They will appear as little lines in the surface of the slabs (very visible in a material like Verde Peacock) and could even be of a different color than the majority of the stone (think of those crazed white lines sometimes appearing in Antique Brown). Sometimes they could be fused like in Antique Brown and other times they could be open, as is the case in the Verde Peacock example. They could often also go right through the body of the slab like in Crema Marfil, for instance. If you look at the light reflection across a fissure, you will never see a break - i.e., there will be no change in the plane on either side of a fissure.

    • A crack on the other hand is a problem... If you look at the slab at an oblique angle in the light, you will note the reflection of the shine on the surface of the stone. A crack will appear as a definite line through the reflection and the reflection will have a different appearance on either side of the line - there will be a break in the plane. Reject slabs like this. One could still work around fissures. Cracks are a whole other can of worms.

    • Resined slabs: The resin gets applied prior to the slabs being polished. Most of the resin then gets ground off in the polishing process. You should not be able to see just by looking at the surface of a slab whether it was resined or not. If you look at the rough sides of the slab, though, you will see some drippy shiny marks, almost like varnish drips. This should be the only indication that the slab is resined. There should never be a film or layer on the face of the stone. With extremely porous stones, the resining will alleviate, but not totally eliminate absorption issues and sealer could still be required. Lady's dream is an example. This material is always resined, but still absorbs liquids and requires sealer.

    • Test the material you have selected for absorption issues regardless - it is always best to know what your stone is capable of and to be prepared for any issues that might arise. Some stones indeed do not require sealer - be they resined or not. Baltic Brown would be an example here. It will not absorb one iota of anything, but it is still resined to eliminate a flaking issue.

Tests (especially for Absolute Black) (using a sample of YOUR slab):

  • To verify you have true AB and not dyed: Clean with denatured alcohol and rub marble polishing powder on the face. (Get denatured alcohol at Home Depot in the paint department)

  • Lemon Juice or better yet some Muratic Acid: will quickly show if the stone has alot of calcium content and will end up getting etched. This is usually chinese stone, not indian.

  • Acetone: The Dying usually is done on the same chinese stone. like the others said, acetone on a rag will reveal any dye that has been applied

  • Chips: Using something very hard & metalhit the granite sharply & hard on edges to see if it chips, breaks, or cracks


  • Before the templaters get there...
    • Make sure you have a pretty good idea of your faucet layout--where you want the holes drilled for all the fixtures and do a test mock up to make sure you have accounted for sufficient clearances between each fixture.

    • Be sure you test your faucet for clearances not just between each fixture, but also between the faucet and the wall behind the faucet (if there is one). You need to be sure the handle will function properly.

    • Make sure that the cabinets are totally level (not out by more than 1/8") before the counter installers come in.

    • Check how close they should come to a stove and make sure the stove sits up higher than the counter.

    • Make sure they have the sink/faucet templates to work from.

    • Make sure have your garbage disposal air switch on hand or know the diameter

  • If you are not putting in a backsplash, tell them

  • Double check the template. Make sure that the measurements are reasonable. Measure the opening for the range.

  • Seam Placement: Yet another kettle of fish (or can of worms, depending on how you look at it, I guess!) Seam placement is ultimately at the discretion of the fabricator. I know it is not a really popular point of view, but that is just the way it is. There really is more to deciding where the seam would go than just the size of the slab or where the seam would look best in the kitchen.

    Most stone installations will have seams. They are unavoidable in medium or large sized kitchens. One hallmark of a good fabricator is that they will keep the seams to a minimum. It seems that a good book could be written about seams, their quality, and their placementand still you will have some information that will be omitted! For something as seemingly simple as joining two pieces of stone, seams have evolved into their own universe of complexity far beyond what anybody should have fair cause to expect!

  • Factors determining seam placement:

    • The slab: size, color, veining, structure (fissures, strength of the material an other characteristics of the stone)

    • Transport to the job site: Will the fabricated pieces fit on whatever vehicle and A-frames he has available

    • Access to the job site: Is the house on stilts? (common in coastal areas) How will the installers get the pieces to where they need to go? Will the tops fit in the service elevator if the apartment is on the 10th floor? Do the installers need to turn tight corners to get to the kitchen? There could be 101 factors that will influence seam placement here alone.

    • Placement and size of undermount (or other) cut-outs. Some fabricators like to put seams in undermount sinks, some do not. We, for instance will do it if absolutely necessary, and have done so with great success, but will not do so as general practice. We do like to put seams in the middle of drop-in appliances and cut-outs and this is a great choice for appearances and ease of installation.

    • Location of the cabinets: Do the pieces need to go in between tall cabinets with finished sides? Do the pieces need to slide in under appliance garages or other cabinetry? How far do the upper cabinets hang over? Is there enough clearance between the vent hood and other cabinets? Again the possibilities are endless and would depend on each individual kitchen lay-out and - ultimately -

    • Install-ability of the fabricated pieces: Will that odd angle hold up to being moved and turned around to get on the peninsula if there is no seam in it? Will the extra large sink cut-out stay intact if we hold the piece flat and at a 45 degree angle to slide it in between those two tall towers? Again, 1,001 combinations of cabinetry and material choices will come into play on this question.

    You can ask your fabricator to put a seam at a certain location and most likely he will oblige, but if he disagrees with you, it is not (always) out of spite or laziness. Check on your fabricator's seams by going to actual kitchens he has installed. Do not trust what you see in a showroom as sole testament to your fabricator's ability to do seams.

    With modern glues and seaming methods, a seam could successfully be put anywhere in an installation without compromising the strength or integrity of the stone. If a seam is done well, there is - in theory - no "wrong" location for it. A reputable fabricator will also try to keep the number of seams in any installation to a minimum. It is not acceptable, for instance to have a seam in each corner, or at each point where the counter changes direction, like on an angled peninsula.

    Long or unusually large pieces are often done if they can fit in the constraints of a slab. Slabs as a rule of thumb will average at about 110"x65". There are bigger slabs and quite often smaller ones too. Check with the fabricator or the slab yard. They will be more than happy to tell you the different sizes of slabs they have available. Note, though, that the larger the slabs, the smaller the selection of possible colors. Slab sizes would depend in part on the capabilities of the quarry, integrity of the material or the capabilities of the machinery at the finishing plant. We have had slabs as wide as 75" and as long as 130" before, but those are monsters and not always readily available.

  • Generally, it is not a good idea to seam over a DW because there's no support for the granite, and anything heavy placed at or near the seam would stress the stone, possibly breaking it.

  • Rodding is another issue where a tremendous amount of mis-information and scary stories exist: The main purpose for rodding stone would be to add integrity to the material around cut-outs. This is primarily for transport and installation and serves no real purpose once the stone is secured and fully supported on the cabinets. It would also depend on the material. A fabricator would be more likely to rod Ubatuba than he would Black Galaxy, for instance. The flaky and delicate materials prone to fissures would be prime candidates for rodding. Rodding is basically when a fabricator cuts slots in the back of the stone and embeds steel or fiberglass rods with epoxy in the slots in the stone. You will not see this from the top or front of the installation. This is an "insurance policy" created by the fabricator to make sure that the stone tops make it to your cabinets all in one piece

  • Edges: The more rounded an edge is, the more stable it would be. Sharp, flat edges are prone to chipping under the right (or rather wrong) circumstances. Demi or full bullnose edges would almost entirely eliminate this issue. A properly milled and polished edge will be stable and durable regardless of the profile, though. My guess at why ogee and stacked edges are not more prevalent would be purely because of cost considerations. Edge pricing is determined by the amount of work needed to create it. The more intricate edge profiles also require an exponentially larger skill set and more time to perfect. The ogee edge is a very elegant edge and can be used to great effect, but could easily look overdone if it is used everywhere. We often advise our clients to combine edges for greater impact - i.e., eased edge on all work surfaces, and ogee on the island to emphasize the cabinetry or unusual shape.
    Edge profiles are largely dependent on what you like and can afford. There is no real pro or con for regular or laminated edges. They all have their place in the design world. Check with your fabricator what their capabilities and pricing are. Look at actual kitchens and ask for references.


  • Seams:
    One hallmark of a good fabricator is that they will keep the seams to a minimum [StoneGirl]

    • A generic good quality seam should have the following characteristics:
      • It should be flat. According to the Marble Institute of America (MIA) a minimal amount of lippage is acceptable (1/32"), but conscientious fabricators all strive for a perfectly flat and smooth joint.

      • It should be narrow - as in smaller than 1/16". (I think the MIA stipulates no larger than 1/8", but that is pushing it - and only if the fabricator bevels the edges of the seam, almost similar to the edge of a stone tile. This is, thank goodness, not a standard practice any more!)

      • The color on either side of the seam should match as closely as possible. On regularly patterned stones like Ubatuba for example - there should be no variation. On stones with variation in colors or veins, the match should be made as close as was humanly possible.

      • Vein direction should flow. The MIA suggests a single direction of vein flow, but it is acceptable IF DISCUSSED WITH THE CLIENT to change vein direction on a seam if no other option is available. This would happen in book matched slabs - you will have a "butterfly" seam in this case. In other cases, the fabricator could put a miter seam in a corner and change vein direction 90 degrees. This is usually done with extremely linear veining like Bamboo Green, for example, but this is something that should be discussed with the fabricator and agreed upon by the client.

      • The seam on the finished edge of the stone should NOT dip in and create a divot in the edge. When you run your fingers over the edge, you should not be able to feel the location of the seam at all.

      • The thickness of the slabs on either side of the seam should be equal (or feathered out so that there is no discernible difference)

      • The glue in the seam should be of a color that matches the stone as closely as possible. Glue joints that are too light or too dark will show up something terrible. The idea behind tinting the glue is to try to make the seam "disappear" or something relatively close to it

  • Checklist:
    • Check the seams for evenness and smoothness.

      • Make sure that the seams are neat and clean.

      • Make sure that the seams are not obvious.

      • Make sure the seams are butted tight

      • Make sure that there are no scratches, pits, or cracks

    • If sealing is necessary (not all granites need to be sealed):

      • Make sure that the granite has been sealed

      • If more than one application of sealer was applied, ask how long they waited between applications

      • Ask which sealer has been used on the granite.

    • Make sure the sink reveal is consistent all the away around

    • Check the gap of the granite at the wall junctions.

    • Check for inconsistent overhangs from the counter edges

    • Check for chips. These can be filled.

    • Make sure the top drawers open & close

    • Make sure that you can open & close your dishwasher

    • Make sure the stove sits up higher than the counter

    • Make sure that you have the appropriate clearances for your appliances

    • Check the edge all around, a good edge should have the following characteristics:
      • Shine: The edge polish should match the top polish in depth and clarity. The edge should not be milky, dull, or waxy.

      • The edge should not have "waves". Eyeball along the edge. A good edge should have a mirror like reflection and be fairly flat. Waves that you can see or feel are not a good thing.

      • The aris (very top of the edge) should be crisp and straight, even on a bullnose edge. Once again you can see this by eyeballing along the very top end of the edge profile. A wavy, dippy aris is poor craftsmanship.

      • A good edge will have a consistent profile. It will not be larger in some spots or smaller in others.

      • A good edge should also have NO tooling lines. These will be fine lighter/white lines running along the edge. This is a mark of a poor edge polish, of a CNC machine that is not set correctly, and a lack of hand finishing. This is common when a company has only mechanical fabrication (i.e., CNC machines or line polishers) and no skilled hand fabricators to finish the work properly.

    • Run your hands around the entire laminated edge of yor counters to make sure they are smooth

    • Check surrounding walls & cabinets for damage

Miscellaneous Information:

  • More than all the above and below, though, is to be present for both the templating as well as having the templates placed on your slabs at the fabricator's
    If you canot be there, then have a lengthy conversation about seam placement, ways to match the movement, and ways to color-match the counters that will be joined at the seam

  • Find a fabricator who is a member of the SFA

  • When they polish your stone for you don't let them wax it. It will look terrible in 2 months when the wax wears off.

  • Don't use the Magic Eraser on granite--especially AB

  • Any slab with more fill (resin) than stone is certainly a no-no!!

  • When you do check for scratches, have overhead lighting shining down so scratches are easier to see

  • Don't let them do cutouts in place (granite dust becomes a major issue)

  • Granite dust can be a problem...some have heard of SS appliances & hoods damaged by the dust, others have heard of drawer glides being ruined by the dust

  • If you have wood floors--especially if you're in the process of staining or finishing them--make sure that they don't spill or drip granite sealer on the wood floors. Apparently the sealer interferes with the stain or finish process.

  • Suggested Prep for Installation:
    • Remove any drawers and pullouts beneath any sections that will be cut or drilled onsite, e.g., sink cutouts and/or faucet, soap dispenser, air gap, instant hot etc. holes, cooktop cutouts.

    • Then just cover the glides themselves with a few layers of blue painter's tape (or some combo of plastic wrap and tape)

    • If you make sure to cover the top of the glides and attach some of the tape to the cab wall as well (to form sort of a seal)and cover the rest of the glides completely with tape, you should be fine.

    • Usually the fabricators will have someone holding a vacuum hose right at the spot where they are drilling or cutting, so very little granite dust should be landing on the glides. What little dust escapes the vacuum will be blocked by the layer(s) of tape.

    • When done w/installation, remove the tape and use a DustBuster (or similar) on all the cabinets and glides

  • Countertop Support:

    • If your granite is 2 cm thick, then there can be no more then 6" of of unsupported span with a 5/8" subtop

    • If your granite is 3 cm thick, then there can be no more then 10" of unsupported span - no subtop required

    • If you need support, the to determine your corbel dimensions:

    • Thickness of Stone - Dimension of Unsupported Span = Corbel Dimensino

    • i.e., an 18" total overhang in 2 cm would require a 12" corbe; the same overhang in 3 cm would require an 8" corbel


clipped on: 03.10.2012 at 07:23 am    last updated on: 03.10.2012 at 07:23 am

Overhang Support for Stone Countertops (Follow-Up #74)

posted by: buehl on 04.09.2010 at 11:08 am in Kitchens Forum

For those not wanting corbels or very careful as plywood by itself is not sufficient need additional support.

First, there's the "6 & 10 Rule":

If your slab is 2 cm, you can have up to a 6" overhang without support.
If your slab is 3 cm you can have up to a 10" overhang without support

Anything over these numbers needs to be supported. For example, with 3cm granite, if you have a 15" overhang you will need 5" corbels or other support so no more than 10" is unsupported.

If you don't want corbels or legs, consider the "CounterBalance" system instead.

See the following threads for more information on the above:

Thread: Kevin - 'remember the 6 & 10 rule' [talks about the CounterBalance system, among others]

Thread: granite fabrication questions..what do you think! [also talks about the CounterBalance system, among others]


clipped on: 03.10.2012 at 07:22 am    last updated on: 03.10.2012 at 07:22 am

RE: Help - I have just put a halt to our granite production (Follow-Up #10)

posted by: buehl on 01.13.2012 at 12:29 am in Kitchens Forum

Have you read the stone information thread in the Read Me thread? It discusses the need for support, among many other things related to picking out, templating, and installing stone surfaces...

Overhang Support:

First question, how thick is your stone? Yes, it matters - 2cm or 3cm?

The "6 & 10 Rule" applies for support:

  • If your granite is 2 cm thick, then there can be no more then 6" of unsupported span with a 5/8" subtop
  • If your granite is 3 cm thick, then there can be no more then 10" of unsupported span - no subtop required
  • If you need support, to determine your corbel dimensions:

    Dimension of Overhang - Maximum unsupported span for your stone thickness = Corbel Dimension/Length needed for the overhang

    i.e., an 18" total overhang in 2 cm would require a 12" corbel [18" - 6" = 12"]
    the same overhang in 3 cm would require an 8" corbel [18" - 10" = 8"]

Seating Overhangs:

The minimum recommended seating overhang for counter-height seating (36" off the floor) is 15". For bar-height seating (42" off the floor), it is 12".

Seams & DW:

Generally, it is not a good idea to seam over a DW because there's no support for the granite, and anything heavy placed at or near the seam would stress the stone, possibly breaking it.

See the thread linked below for more information (it is the thread I mentioned at the beginning of this post.)

Overall...Based on what you've written about the templater's recommendations, etc., I think it is time to find someone else!

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread: Stone Information and Advice (& Checklists)


clipped on: 03.10.2012 at 07:08 am    last updated on: 03.10.2012 at 07:08 am

RE: Kitchen looks great if you look from far away-up close I'm cr (Follow-Up #16)

posted by: boxerpups on 02.16.2012 at 04:19 pm in Kitchens Forum

Lovely! The kitchen is lovely. I just wanted to tell you
how pretty it is. This does not diminish your issues.
You are NOT being picky. You have every right to demand
this is fixed. However, I am still in
panic mode!!! Where is the support on that overhang?
How is it supported?

Maybe these visuals can help your husband see you need
his help. My DH avoids conflict at all costs.
He has come around on various occassions in life.
His deep penetrating manly voice has gotten many things
resolved . And maybe your DH can help you.

Here are the images of what a counter support should
have. Maybe they used this.

Nails into the cabinet! Amazing at the stupidity.

It is never too late for Cosmos or Skinny girl Margarittas.
We will help you get through this. No worries GW is on
your side!!!!!



clipped on: 03.10.2012 at 06:51 am    last updated on: 03.10.2012 at 06:51 am

bronze finish for sink drainer?

posted by: kemilie on 03.01.2012 at 08:00 pm in Kitchens Forum

Does anyone have a brand they have been happy with for sink drainer/garbage disposal top piece, that comes in bronze? The rest of my kitchen is all bronze, and we're finally replacing the sink/faucet to match. Unfortunately I can only seem to find reviews for products that say "chipped after two weeks!". Would love it if someone is happy with what they purchased and could share brand info.

Thank you!


clipped on: 03.01.2012 at 08:10 pm    last updated on: 03.01.2012 at 08:10 pm

RE: Toe Kick Drawers (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: jscout on 01.18.2012 at 11:00 am in Kitchens Forum

My drawers operate exactly like how cabinetsbyalan describes. When I was discussing it with my cabinet maker, I kept wondering about what kind of handles to put on. But then he told me that he would treat them like inset drawers and use push-in glides like he does for some file cabinets. I think the glides he used in mine were by KV. I really like how it functions. Push in and it pops out. To close, just push in until you hear a click. One thing I did do, though, is put clear contact paper over the face. I didn't want to scuff the finish and create uneven wear.


clipped on: 02.28.2012 at 11:14 pm    last updated on: 02.28.2012 at 11:14 pm

RE: size of prep sink (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: SadieV on 12.28.2011 at 09:49 am in Kitchens Forum

I have the Blanco Diamond Bar Sink in my 30" x 84" island and I love it. The outside dimension is 15"x15", and the inside dimension is 11.5"x12"x8" deep. I don't use the prep sink for washing dishes, but its perfect for washing veggies and fruits, and my strainer fits perfectly. I located it as close to the corner as I could, which is about 6" from each edge. If I were doing it all over again, I would do it exactly as it is. As I use my island for the vast majority of my prep work, and there is also seating, I didn't want to use more of the surface than I needed to. I did go with the pull down faucet, which I would also recommend. If I'm filling a pot larger than will fit in the sink, I simply place the pot on the counter and use the pull down.


clipped on: 02.26.2012 at 08:13 am    last updated on: 02.26.2012 at 08:13 am

RE: Design Around This #14: Rustic Modern (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: cbusmomof3 on 01.29.2012 at 03:06 pm in Kitchens Forum

Ok, I had to give this one a try because this is how I kind of define my style (or earthy, organic, eclectic). We are building a house and these are the elements I have selected. I first selected the cream cabinets and the brown antique granite. I wanted to painted cabinets because I've only had stained in the past. But, I knew I would need to warm it with natural wood so I chose the dark stain for the island (still using brown antique for the counter). The light fixtures are where I kind of get the modern edge.

Wall color will either be SW Universal Khaki or SW Quiver Tan (undecided).

The table and burnt red chairs are similar what I currently have (I like mine better). I loved them in my old house because they added much needed color but I really wish I could change them and go with a different look in the new house, but they're too new to justify that. They may get moved to the dining room but I'm not sure.

I want some kind of sea grass stool for the island but haven't found the perfect ones yet. The pulls and knobs will be ORB. The floors with be 4" wide white oak stained on site. I want dark (but not too dark) with no orange or green undertones.

The rangetop will be this KitchenAid 6 burner



Finally in my dream (which will not become reality), there would be exposed beams and a sliding barn door like this.

Olentangy Falls ~ Delaware, OH traditional home office

The picture above was actually in a house at our local Parade of Homes. I loved the entire house which was definitely modern rustic and we talked to the builder but ultimately went with another builder. I still go and look at the pictures though because I do love it :-)


clipped on: 02.12.2012 at 09:16 pm    last updated on: 02.12.2012 at 09:16 pm

RE: Mistakes that others can learn from (Follow-Up #14)

posted by: kellied on 11.10.2011 at 12:47 pm in Kitchens Forum

Sheetrock nails tend to back out over time and you see the nailheads. Screws are the best way to go.


clipped on: 01.11.2012 at 07:28 pm    last updated on: 01.11.2012 at 07:28 pm

RE: Mistakes that others can learn from (Follow-Up #9)

posted by: dianalo on 11.10.2011 at 12:23 pm in Kitchens Forum

Most important: Do not pay the final payment until it is 100% done! You need to keep a large payment back and need to be firm about this. We got pressured into paying most of the final payment because our job went long and they claimed we were so close to completion. You all know what happened after that.... The final payment is held back as an incentive to finish. It does not matter how much is left to do, it will ensure they do it because the payment will not be in their hands until it is. I can't stress this enough!

Watch that they don't use nails on your sheetrock.

The exterior height of a cab is not the same as the interior height. I measured some open cabs that should have fit my kitchen electrics comfortably, but I failed to account for the thickness of the box. Pretty dumb in hindsight....

Make sure you specify exactly where you want your lighting to the electrician or you will be fixing holes in the sheetrock when they have to move them all.

Speak to people who have completed projects from the gc and ask how it was a few months after and if they came back to fix or tweak anything. I'd also ask if there was anything to be careful about with the gc. People may be happy overall, but you need to know the weaknesses. They may need to be reminded. I found people after we got screwed who were all able to warn me (too late!).

Make sure the faucet is tall enough for a vessel sink with actual measurements (ot - bathroom).

Put your wall oven fairly close to where the vent over the stove is or risk setting off your smoke detector occasionally.

Make sure that any windows are not placed too low. We had this in our bedroom where it is too low to put furniture below them, but this could happen anywhere.

Make sure the hardware is tightened for any pocket doors before they close the wall up. Our wheels went off the track and can't be gotten back on to stay without opening up the freshly completed wall to tighten them in place.


Lighting, plugs
clipped on: 01.11.2012 at 07:25 pm    last updated on: 01.11.2012 at 07:26 pm

RE: Help - I have just put a halt to our granite production (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: suzannesl on 01.11.2012 at 05:03 pm in Kitchens Forum

Unlike Hollysprings, our supports for the peninsula were done by the granite guys, but we have 3 cm granite without a plywood base, so that may make a difference.

Overhang supports

I was a little confused about your description of what was happening after your counter goes over your dishwasher space though. Our countertop spans that space and dead ends into the pantry. We, not the granite guys, put a support on the side of the pantry to hold up that end of the counter. They told us what to put there, but we did the putting. You might need something similar for where your counter hangs out into space.

Support to adjoining cabinet

From the top it looks like:


Good for you to stop this process before it was too late. We were very fortunate to have found a great granite place with super helpful owners/fabricators. To have this part of the process go sideways would be awful. We took them at their word that the six pieces of our granite in the stack had very little variation as Kashmir Gold doesn't have big variations. They wrote our name on the one we could see and the next one down. I know they used parts of 2 slabs, but I can tell, can you? I just looked up Volga Blue though, and this is a stone that has *huge* variations. For that, and many stones, of course you should see the others, not just the most handy. What are they thinking!?


clipped on: 01.11.2012 at 05:55 pm    last updated on: 01.11.2012 at 05:55 pm

Help with knobs!

posted by: chmpgntst on 10.01.2011 at 01:27 pm in Kitchens Forum

Hello everyone,

I need help from all you TKOs out there. We just moved into a new house and this is our kitchen.

I like it well enough -- plenty of storage and the layout mostly works for us. However, I think it's lacking oomph and I thought maybe switching out the really bland cabinet knobs might help.

I tried these


but I think they may be a little too traditional for the space. I like mixing old and new but they might be a little too traditional. I love the sparkle though!

I also found these which I love(they also come in round 1-1/4 inch). They have a bit of a beach-glass feel which I like as we are just a few miles from the beach and have a lot of blues and greens in the house. However, we have 40 knobs in the kitchen, and I suspect that 40 of these might be overkill. Also, at $12 each, 40 would be pricey.

So my questions are:
1. What would you mix with the recycled glass knobs, and how would you do it? Glass on the uppers only? What would look good on the bottom to complement them? I thought of pewter because it would have that rough, handmade look, but there is no other pewter in the space for it to "relate" to.
2. Would it be too busy to put the glass knobs on the uppers, brushed nickel on the bottom, and contemporary cup pulls on the drawers (which currently have knobs?)
3. Do you know just the knob that would be absolutely perfect in this space?

TIA for your help -- and for reading this far to begin with! :-)



clipped on: 12.08.2011 at 04:06 pm    last updated on: 12.08.2011 at 04:06 pm

Underside of counters

posted by: aliris19 on 09.28.2011 at 12:58 pm in Kitchens Forum

Did you know the underside of your countertops matter? I'm just putting it out there to maybe help another as ignorant as me. I've no doubt that to professionals, those in receipt of professional advice and work, and designers, this is like saying: 'did you know house framing matters' or some-such. But, I'm none of the above, I didn't and I've learned.

Here's what I've learned:

If you're going to have an overhang, either as a passthrough or eating bar or whatever, think about the underside. Perhaps ask for finished plywood as the roughtop. Consider whether you wish it to be visible or try to hide it with false pieces (I know there's a name for these and there have been threads about it too, with a fancy name I've forgotten). Consider how false fronts diminish seating space though (from that other thread).

Consider sight-lines. For example I can see the underside of our passthrough from my overhanging counter seating area. Not-great.

Here's the thing that really surprised me: How your edges end *underneath* the countertop. I asked for 1.5" edge overhang because I wanted to maximally protect my cabinets and maximize countertop acreage as well. I was upfront about this in all my bids. But it turns out the people I picked do what they do. So I had a fight on my hands when it came time to do what they did and I kind of lost in the functional-arena. They were opposed to providing the extra depth from their MO because there would be a 'blank' space between the counter edge and the rough top. Of course that didn't have to have been, they could have cut the rough top a little larger than usual, not strictly to the cabinet box' edge. Or they could have finagled the edge a little larger I think ... But they didn't think accommodatingly that way at all and I didn't know to instruct this.

Anyway, what resulted is a space between the rough top and the edge of the coutertop underneath that's rough rough rough. Kind of creepy and dirty and sharp-rough. Not good at all. What I didn't realize is how much this was coloring my bad feelings about the whole job. This is one of those you-didn't-know-you-used-that-muscle-until-it-gets-pulled things. Evidently one's fingertips go beneath the edge of a countertop many times per hour; they do for me at least and I just had no inkling.

So upon complaining about many things, most notably an especially rough patch underneath where there was a vein in the stone, my GC at first said 'well, it's not really such a big deal' and I corrected him saying I notice it *all* the time and so do visitors. So the GC instructed the countertop guys to fix it. What they did was just to sand the edge all along. And I'm writing just to note what an *enormous* difference in perception this makes to the entire whole job and kitchen. I repeat that I think one, at least I, actually finger the underside of a countertop several times an hour unknowingly. Having this smoothed is, I am finding, making the difference between cursing the poor workmanship several times per hour and feeling happy at the smooth, safe, not-dirty feeling there. I had not realized before-hand that this was the source of so much on-going discontent. It seemed comparatively trivial but I'm finding it to have been key. Who knew?

So in sum, if you want a 1.5" edge, depending on the cabinet boxes, the door fronts and their thickness and the habits of the roughtop-emplacing guys, you may need to finagle a blank space underneath. Talk about it first to minimize the impact. Sanding worked as an aftermarket fix, but best would have been for the roughtop to come to the actual edge of the countertop. And I think it should be standard practice to polish the edges of the overhang, but I don't know whether that is industry-standard. But it's something I recommend considering in initial discussions.

OK, so this probably falls in the _duh_ category, but I'm guessing I'm not the only complete-countertop-ignoramus out here and my experience might help another. It's wonderful that this stuff is archived.



clipped on: 12.06.2011 at 07:36 am    last updated on: 12.06.2011 at 07:36 am

RE: Dark stained floors in limited light (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: breezygirl on 09.28.2011 at 07:53 pm in Kitchens Forum

Hi neighbor! Good timing! I'm just down I5 from you so I understand gray concern. My older neighborhood was built around the theory of cutting down as many mammoth trees as possible, which adds to the gray. I also have standard height ceilings and plent of new windows. My cabs are white and counters will be mostly Carrara. Wood floor area is about 1000 sq. ft.

I also wanted a rich, warm brown for my new white oak floors. I loved Nini's floors too and was happy that she posted the formula. (Thanks, Nini!) I went through several stain swatches and chose a mix very close to hers. Mine are 75% Jacobean and 25% Coffee. I wanted to try the 25% in Dark Walnut like Nini's, but the floor guys didn't have that one with them. Coffee is apparently nearly the same as DW.

Floors were stained only yesterday and the second coat of poly is drying this moment. Here's what it looked like earlier today when the second coat went down.

Stained floors at 2nd poly coat

It's a big change going from very light carpet to this. I do love it though! It feels so rich and yummy in the house now. (I did have a mini freak this morning after feeling like the color wasn't warm enough. The sun is out today, but when the gray comes soon I don't want the floors to seem cold.) DH, if he had his way, would have gone almost black. But he isn't the one who cleans! :)


clipped on: 12.05.2011 at 08:46 pm    last updated on: 12.05.2011 at 08:46 pm

RE: DH was busy... (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: trailrunner on 09.27.2011 at 11:26 pm in Kitchens Forum

Breezy do you make your own pasta ? I can give you a very easy recipe that DH uses...I just sent it to Rhome. I will cut/paste it here and you can ask if it is confusing. Glad you like it . It is so much lighter than store bought noodles. Also the texture is so much better and there is less filling but lots of thin layers

Eggplant Lasagna with home made noodles

1 1/2 c white KA white flour and 2 beaten eggs , a good pinch of salt and about 1 TBSP water. He makes a well of flour and pours the eggs and salt into the center. As he kneads and works the flour into the dough he sees if he needs some water. He added the TBSP as he worked the dough for about 10 min. He lets it set wrapped in plastic wrap on the counter for about 20 min to rest. He then passes it through the different roller settings on the pasta machine till it is velvety and for lasagna he went down to "5" .

He uses flour as he goes along to make sure it isn't sticky but he says his is never really sticky except at the very very beginning of rolling. He lets them dry after he cuts the rectangles on the counter for an hour. He then dusted them lightly with flour and stacked them...nothing between the layers, and weighted them with a plate so they wouldn't curl up.

He broiled 1/2 thick slices of eggplant till crisp..brush with olive oil and salt and pepper both sides.He had 18 3 spaced out for each of 6 layers.

He put sauce ( home made by me the other day) uncooked pasta sheets ( they take up the liquid from the sauce so you needn't cook them ) brush the pasta lightly with ricotta ( I put 1 egg and salt and pepper and dried basil and oregano in 1/2# ricotta) then lay on a 3 slices of eggplant and then pieces of fresh mozzarella and then drizzle sauce. Don't use too much sauce. I was amazed at how little you need with the fresh pasta. About 16 oz for the 8x8 pan. This is an 8x8 pan and he made 12 oz pasta. Each sheet was 1 oz. We used them all for 6 layers. So you are doing very thin layers and very small amounts of filling and after each layer you pressss....down and kind of pack it in the pan. Top with grated parmesan and cover tightly with foil. Bake at 350 for 30 min and then uncover for 15 more. Let set for about 15-20 min to let it settle..


clipped on: 12.05.2011 at 08:34 pm    last updated on: 12.05.2011 at 08:34 pm

Finished Peppercorn/Delicatus White for FKB

posted by: kitchenaddict on 06.21.2010 at 06:32 pm in Kitchens Forum

Here are my official digital pictures for the FKB, along with the list of details as requested by starpooh....

Cabinets- Kraftmaid Peppercorn Stain on cherry
Cabinet Door Style-Layton
Granite--Delicatus White
Flooring-Pergo Select Laminate in Red Prairie Pine
Range-GE Profile
Dishwasher- LG
Refridgerator-Fridgedaire Professional
Backsplash- Crema Marfil Tumbled Marble
Sink- Blanco Silgranit in Anthracite
Faucet- Delta Talbot
Pendants- Bellacor Seeded Bell Jar with Brushed Nickel
Pulls- Kraftmaid

Peppercorn Kraftmaid Cabinets

Here is a link that might be useful: Peppercorn Cabinet Kitchen


clipped on: 12.05.2011 at 07:30 pm    last updated on: 12.05.2011 at 07:34 pm

RE: How many legs does an island need? (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: cloud_swift on 12.04.2011 at 04:07 pm in Kitchens Forum

You don't need any legs, but you need some kind of support. How much depends partly on whether the slabs are 2 cm or 3 cm. There are lots of ways to provide support. Our 2 cm granite (really quartzite) is supported with steel bars inset in a plywood subtop. The bars are about 2" by 1/2" steel with one about every couple of feet of overhang.


Here it is with the granite in place. The laminated edge of the granite hides the plywood to anyone not looking underneath. I wish I had thought to ask them to use plywood with a cherry veneer on the bottom, though nobody but me and perhaps our toddler grandson seem to be aware of the plain plywood underside there.



clipped on: 12.04.2011 at 07:08 pm    last updated on: 12.04.2011 at 07:09 pm

RE: How many legs does an island need? (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: suzannesl on 12.03.2011 at 09:10 pm in Kitchens Forum

Do you want legs at all? You don't have to have them if you'd rather not. Or if you want 2, but not more, there is a solution. This is the underside of our overhang:

Those bars you see support the overhang without being visible except to people crawling around the floor to take a look. Your granite installers will know how many you need as they do this every day. Will you have legs elsewhere in your kitchen? They're definitely a style look you may want to go with, but they are not structurally necessary if you'd rather not.


clipped on: 12.04.2011 at 07:00 pm    last updated on: 12.04.2011 at 07:02 pm

RE: Am I the only one.... (Follow-Up #4)

posted by: mpagmom on 10.12.2011 at 02:03 pm in Kitchens Forum

I know how you feel, but there are still lots of people who appreciate the beauty of stained wood. I was recently going through the "coming soon" kitchens at and I was surprised at how many there were. I'll post examples of two coming soon kitchens, but I suggest you check through the rest.

Here is kris_ma's beautiful kitchen:

And here is kitchenaddict's with very dark wood:


clipped on: 10.14.2011 at 11:59 pm    last updated on: 10.15.2011 at 12:00 am

RE: Granite breakfast bar support (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: boxerpups on 12.16.2010 at 06:12 pm in Kitchens Forum

I believe plywood for all granite tops is essential but
this is not the norm. I am picky about my kitchen and
wanted extra support. My DH made plywood tops. Well
the big reason for this was it took me forever to choose
a granite and at least had plywood counters while
we waited for the right stone. The plywood adds support
but what you need is something like this.


Do you have an installer you are working with? Or
is this a DIY install? No worries, do as much research
as you can because the stone really needs support.

Steel Support for the overhang

See the brackets under the counter. Maybe something like
this could work for you.

This is called a Federal Brace I think you can get
these much smaller.

Or maybe something with moulding.

Steel support like this is ideal. You can do a search
for Honeyb on GW and might find some clippings of this.


John Bridge Builders


This last image is also part of the link I posted for you. That will answer some questions from Granite experts.
And here in this same image you can see steel on top of plywood. This is not going to crack or move!


Here is a link that might be useful: Granite overhang how to?


clipped on: 10.09.2011 at 01:49 pm    last updated on: 10.09.2011 at 01:49 pm

RE: Show me your counter overhang for seating (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: brickton on 06.17.2011 at 03:03 pm in Kitchens Forum


We are planning to do an apron for our countertop overhang, but we're a ways away. Here are a couple images of with and without that might help you visually compare. Two are from Houzz, two are Pinterest finds.

Classic Hyannisport Residence Kitchen traditional kitchen

With my favorite apron style:
an eclectic house eclectic kitchen

Without (Actually does have it on the side):



clipped on: 10.09.2011 at 01:44 pm    last updated on: 10.09.2011 at 01:44 pm

RE: Neet help on 12' granite overhang support on kitchen island (Follow-Up #13)

posted by: stacywomble on 04.24.2010 at 02:57 pm in Remodeling Forum

I know this is not going to help the original questioner posted in 2007 and I sure wish I had found this question back then... But for those of you looking for "THE" answer... hear you go.
The Amastin Company, Corryton TN, has been providing steel support bars in supporting hard surface counters to the East TN market since 1995.
In this particular case, which is a common one, Amastin offers a 31" long x 2-1/2" wide x 1/2" thick steel support bar that would bump and mount into the back of the front face frame, notch and recess flush across the back cabinet mounting strip. This support would overhang 8" leaving it approx 4" from the counter edge making it virtually hidden.
Amastin has the overhang support thing figured out and if you have any questions or in need of custom support advise... Amastin is place to find the answers.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Amastin Company- Steel Support Bars


clipped on: 10.09.2011 at 01:34 pm    last updated on: 10.09.2011 at 01:34 pm

RE: Support for overhang on granite counter top. (Follow-Up #15)

posted by: pacmary on 05.15.2007 at 08:49 pm in Remodeling Forum

I am definitely going with the steel bars. My Silestone dealer says my 12 inch overhang definitely needs support. They recommend at least 3 for my 8 foot countertop, but we're doing 4- 1 toward each end and 1 on each side of the sink where the overhang is most vulnerable.

I called "steel fabricating" companies (in the Yellow Pages) and they all carry (and had in stock) 1/4 inch thick "rolled steel flat bars". They come in 20 foot lengths and in 2, 2.5, and 3 inch widths. The cost per bar ranged from $22 to $30, and the company I am using charges $1 per cut. They cut while you wait. I did not ask about hole drilling because we can do that ourselves. All 4 will cost under $35!!

I am thrilled that I don't need corbels. Had them, hate them. No matter where you put them, they are always in the way of the chairs and/or the knees!


clipped on: 10.09.2011 at 01:18 pm    last updated on: 10.09.2011 at 01:19 pm

RE: Electric receptable under cabinets? (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: kris_ma on 10.05.2011 at 10:56 am in Kitchens Forum

We have the angled plugmold and really like it. Yeah, the cords are visible when they go up like that but it has the advantage of not making the appliance sit out 2" to accommodate a big plug like our Rancillio stuff has, and it also is very easy to see when we are trying to plug something in (no moving appliances to see the plug or access it). At first the electrician put in a standard beige plug mold and it was so ugly I had them take it out and put one of these in -- the angled one is a little pricier (seems it was around $120 for 4'), but worth it. They also have more room than a standard one, making them less hassle/cost to install if you're paying by the hour.

Undercabinet area:  angled plugmold and low profile xenon light

Our contractor ordered it here for us (unfortunately they'll only sell to contractors):


clipped on: 10.09.2011 at 12:29 pm    last updated on: 10.09.2011 at 12:29 pm

RE: Storage for potatoes onions etc - please post you pics (Follow-Up #13)

posted by: lalitha on 07.26.2011 at 04:33 pm in Kitchens Forum

Here's what the experts say:

From the National Potato Council...

"They should be stored in a cool, dry environment with good ventilation. Paper bags, cardboard boxes, and pantries are good places to store them. An ideal temperature for storage would be between 45 and 55 degrees Fahrenheit. Avoid storing them in plastic bags or in refrigerators and make sure the environment is not too warm." And NIH says "Never eat potatoes that are spoiled or green below the skin." (

And from the National Onion Association...

Store your onions in a cool, dry, ventilated place - not in the refrigerator. Do not store whole onions in plastic bags. Lack of air movement reduces storage life. Chopped or sliced onions can be stored in a sealed container in your refrigerator for up to 7 days.

I love the canisters but worry about the size as I do not feel I can give up the counter space.

The wire drawers seem nice but I think the spuds are supposed to be stored in the dark right? The bamboo steamer seems to be a great idea..

That video was amazing! Looks like they solved the kitchen design problem in 1949! I love the scrape hole idea, the pull out task table idea as well as the potato/ onion idea. I was looking at baking center ideas in another thread..

Countrygirl --> Thanks for linking the old thread.. honestly I searched a few different search terms and did not come up with any hits.

Davidro1 --> Ha Ha.. I had to laugh as I was trying to explain it to a potential KD.. She kept asking me "what do you mean.. you have a fridge for vegetable storage" .. I explained to her that I like to keep some veggies outside.. I guess a gal who doesn't cook has no business being a KD. But you haven't found a solution...I am shocked :)

Alabamamommy --> My cabinet guy suggested similar basket and yes.. the purist in me was the one who prompted me to post as well :)


clipped on: 10.09.2011 at 12:18 pm    last updated on: 10.09.2011 at 12:19 pm

hood dilemma

posted by: sophie123 on 07.16.2011 at 06:23 pm in Kitchens Forum

My hood was installed in new kitchen on Friday and there is a problem (see gap between hood and wall cabinet above it):


It was caused by the cabinets being deeper than standard depth (15" wall and 26" base). This should have been caught while planning but wasn't.

They are 30" height from cooktop when it is installed.

The GC said he wants to get a filler from cabinet maker to cover gap as it is currently installed because he thinks pulling the hood out will be an obstruction. My reaction was it would look not right (and certainly not as designed by architect).

If it were aligned it would be pulled out 3 inches which would be 28" out which .5" beyond the edge of the counter when it is installed.

Another way to look at it is that the hood would stick out an extra inch from standard cabinet size installation (at 30" height from cooktop which we mulled over quite a while but had to go with to get the cabinet above hood look).

I can't really tell if this is going to bother me and anyone else in the kitchen. Is the hood going to be an obstruction if it is pulled out beyond the edge of counter? Does anyone have a 27" deep hood installed in standard depth cabinets (at 30" high) that could comment if it is an obstruction or not?

I am 5'5" and DH 6'. I'm the primary cook but he cooks too.

Thanks so much!


clipped on: 10.09.2011 at 12:13 pm    last updated on: 10.09.2011 at 12:14 pm

Finished Walnut Kitchen

posted by: constantinople on 08.02.2011 at 03:47 pm in Kitchens Forum

We are just completing our new build and thought I would share one of our kitchens. Everything is done except the curved casing around the windows. I took the pictures at different times of the day with two camera to try and compensate for my bad photographic skills.

I did not include the suppliers for each and every item I purchased. If anyone is interested in the source for anyone of the items included, please let me know.

You may notice that our warming drawer front is missing - it got smashed in transit and we are waiting for a replacement.

I have included one photo of the dining room for context.

Thanks to all for their thoughtful contributions on so many topics - your experiences have helped us in so many ways.

Here are the details:

Cabinetry - custom built / solid walnut, natural finish

Cabinetry Pulls - Amerock Bar Pull; Finish: oil rubbed bronze

Countertops / Backsplash:
Kitchen / Island Counters - granite: Bordeaux River
Backsplash - Honey Creme Onyx

Plumbing Fixtures:

Main Sink - Ticor S6513; mount: undermount
Island Sink - Ticor s805; mount: undermount

Main / Island Faucet - Grohe Ladylux
Pot Filler - Chicago Faucets 515


Refrigerator - KitchenAide KFIS25XV SS

Dishwasher - Bosch SHX45P05UC SS

Microwave / Speedcooker - GE Advantium 30" black, 240V, undercounter mount

Cooktop - GE Induction PHP960 black

Ovens - Capital Maestro 30" Single Wall Oven

Warming Drawer - Capital Maestro 30"

Hood - Vent A Hood SLH6-K30SS

Flooring - Yellow Birch; finish: Bona Traffic semi gloss


Recessed - Halo H47ICAT; trim: 498W painted w/ ceiling color; bulb: PAR38 40 deg.

Island Pendants - ET2 E20146; Finish: Amber Ripple

Under / Over Cabinet - Inspired LED Ultra Bright strips for under / Super Bright for over

Windows - Anderson 400


Walls - BM Aura: Golden Tan 2152:40

Ceiling - BM Aura: Golden Straw 2152:50






















clipped on: 10.09.2011 at 11:38 am    last updated on: 10.09.2011 at 11:38 am

RE: Height of wall oven / micro convection combo (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: nanj on 08.07.2011 at 04:19 pm in Kitchens Forum

Kitchen Sync is a blog by a kitchen designer. She discusses the ergonomics of oven placement. Great information.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen Sync: Cooking Ergonomics


clipped on: 10.09.2011 at 11:36 am    last updated on: 10.09.2011 at 11:36 am

RE: Range Hood Recommendations (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: akchicago on 09.05.2011 at 11:30 am in Kitchens Forum

You should go to the Appliances Forum where there are extensive discussions on hoods (I'll link below).

- Ideally, your hood should be 54" wide, so that there is 3" of capture area on each side of your range. But if your hood is 48" wide (due to cabinetry or space limitations) that's OK.

- Your hood should be no less than 24" deep, and many people feel that 27" deep is better (personal choice there). Don't worry about hitting your head; you will get used to the hood being there and won't hit your head.

- to calculate the proper amount of cfm's, add up the btu's of your range, divide by 100. For example, if you had a 30" range, with 15,000 btu's on each of the 4 burners = 60,000 total btu's. You would need a 600 cfm hood. Many people might say it's overkill because you won't have all burners going at the same time. Well, that's up to you, but at least you have ballpark cfm's to aim for. However, be aware that it is better to run your hood on a lower setting most of the time, than have to have it cranked to full power (because you undersized on the cfm's). That way it will be less noisy, and still have the power to crank it up on those occasions you need it when frying steak or stir-frying or whatever.

- baffle filters are better than mesh filters, because mesh quickly become clogged with grease and need to be cleaned more often or will be rendered ineffective.

- do not skimp on the ductwork! It should be at least 8" diameter, and perhaps 10" diameter depending on which hood you have. Anything smaller than 8" will give you much greater noise, and diminished efficiency. Don't listen to your GC if he says 6" is OK--they often say that because 6" diameter duct is easier to install. Stand firm. Also, the more bends you have in your ductwork, and the longer the run to the outside, the more noise and the less efficiency. Try to keep bends and duct run distance to a minimum.

- if you are building a new house, it is likely going to be well-insulated and tight. With a powerful hood, that might mean you will need make-up air (aka "MUA"). In some locales, MUA is required by Code. There are a lot of discussions of make-up air on the Appliances Forum.

- There are a vast number of hoods on the market, and you have not provided a price point for us. If you have a sizable budget, Modern-Aire is very popular on this forum, and they are very beautiful. Slightly less money (though still expensive) is Independent Hoods which used to make the hoods for Wolf until Wolf decided to make its own hoods in-house. Kobe hoods are more budget-friendly, and still very good quality. If you want to be matchy, you could get a Viking hood, but I don't know anything about their hoods. Viking doesn't have that great a reputation for reliability, though I think they are trying to change that perception.

Here is a link that might be useful: Gardenweb's Appliances Forum


clipped on: 10.09.2011 at 10:51 am    last updated on: 10.09.2011 at 10:52 am