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RE: What is an old or antique rose? (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: bellegallica_zone9 on 11.17.2012 at 08:41 pm in Antique Roses Forum

It is a rose that belongs to one of the classes that was in existence before 1867. That is the date "La France" was introduced, and La France has been chosen as the first Hybrid Tea, though there may have been earlier ones. So, all the rose classes prior to the Hybrid Tea class.

Those classes are:

Gallica
Damask
Damask Perpetual
Centifolia
Moss
Bourbon
Hybrid Perpetual
China
Tea
Noisette

The old European rose classes usually only bloomed once in the spring and summer. Those were the Gallicas, Centifolias, Damasks. When the repeat blooming Asian roses, the Chinas and Teas, were introduced to the Western world, rose breeders began crossing them with the once bloomers to create the repeat blooming OGR classes: Bourbons, Hybrid perpetuals, Noisettes.

I may be leaving out a class or two. (Species are the oldest of all, of course.) But that's the basic story.

On this forum, though, things are a bit relaxed and people talk about roses that are old, but that don't necessarily fit the technical definition. And Austin roses are discussed here, too. They are modern roses with the old-fashioned look.

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clipped on: 12.14.2012 at 03:17 pm    last updated on: 12.14.2012 at 03:17 pm

RE: Modern Hybrid Teas (Follow-Up #73)

posted by: roseblush1 on 12.01.2012 at 04:34 pm in Antique Roses Forum

idixierose and bellegallica .....

I am uncomfortable saying this, but how I prune roses can't be found in any garden book or article. I figured it out by some problem solving and experimenting in this garden where summer temps are higher than any I had ever experienced in my rose gardening life.

I had read many articles in the ARS magazines and rose books and gardening magazines about how to prune roses, so I tried to follow the practices in those articles. The roses did OK so I thought I was doing the right thing. The general advice was to bring down the height of the rose by at least a third and remove all dead wood, diseased wood and twiggy growth. You have all seen those before and after photos or drawings.

When I bought this property, I had to learn how to garden on four levels. My time management sucked in the beginning. I couldn't get to all four levels to do the work necessary to prune all of the roses correctly and within the advised time period. The HTs Mrs. J planted out in front were the last roses to get attention. They had been neglected for more than a decade because Mrs. J was in her 90s when I bought the house.

Since I couldn't get out there, the deer were free to chomp on Mrs. J's HTs as much as they liked. So, come spring, they had already been lopped off. For a couple of years, all they got was good watering and feeding and no additional pruning. They didn't bloom much, but each year they seemed to become healthier plants. I finally had time to cage them, but still didn't do much pruning. The roses outgrew their first roses cages within a season and had a lot more bloom, but those blooms really weren't enough to make me want to give them more attention. I did notice that the plants had more bloom, but I thought that was because the deer were not eating the buds.

Kim Rupert (Roseseek) has been my rose mentor for a couple decades. His mantra has always been to "learn from the rose" and that's a principle I've tried to follow ...it ain't easy.

When I came up with the idea of how to keep the rose curculios from breeding in my garden by disbudding all of the roses in the garden during rose curculio season, I noticed that the roses were pushing out more foliage and more buds during the disbudding period. Without really thinking about it, I decided that the plant must be putting out additional foliage to support pushing out the additional buds and that roses had a mandate to bloom.

Then as time went on and the garden was becoming a rose garden, I noticed that the plants that I didn't have time to prune had denser foliage and seemed to have blooms with better petal substance. They also did not seem to wilt in the afternoons when the transpiration rate of moisture loss was higher than the plant could handle by pulling moisture up to the top growth from the roots.

I started connecting the dots. The plants need that foliage to be healthier plants in this climate. (Note: I have zero disease pressure during the summer because my temps are well above 85 degrees every day.) Since the night temps cool down by as much as 50 degrees, the roses ... pruned or not ... were able to bring enough moisture up to the top growth to revitalize the foliage. Additional watering didn't make any difference in the transpiration rate, but additional foliage made a major difference in how the roses handled the high temps.

Another experiment was born. I walked through the garden and noticed that all of that twiggy growth may not produce blooms, but it did produce foliage. So, I started pruning my roses from the bottom up instead of the top down .. removing old unproductive canes from the bottom of the plant and leaving any wood that was healthy. I experimented with cleaning out the center of the roses and not cleaning out the center. I also experimented with not taking off any of the top growth, taking off some of it or pruning it down harder, but always concentrating on how to leave the most wood to produce foliage ... and I kept notes.

I did find that no pruning was not as effective as doing some pruning of the top growth to open up the canopy at the top of the plant because it allowed light to reach the canes that were shaded by the foliage and the rose put up new shoots with even more foliage.

I found that I can't treat every rose exactly the same way to get denser foliage, but have to find out what triggers the rose to produce the foliage. Of course, if it is not genetically programmed to have dense foliage, I'll find that out by my experiments and doing some research.

Over the years, I've been doing this experiment, I have found that every rose, and I do mean "every rose in this garden", where I have pruned for foliage has been more heat tolerant than they were when I followed the advice found in books and articles. My roses also have less cane damage by sunburn and thus are less susceptible to disease (canker) and insect damage by cane borers.

The increased foliage also encourages .. if that is the right word ... the plant to pull even more moisture up to the top growth to maintain that foliage which increases the plant's heat tolerance.

I also noticed that roses with dense foliage tend to have thicker petal substance in the blooms which make them more heat tolerant.

Some roses will never be truly heat tolerant because they do not produce dense foliage and the blooms are not genetically programmed to have the thicker petal substance needed to last in the heat. So not matter what I do, the blooms will fry. Those are the roses that are just not suited for my climate.

I am sorry this post is so long, but it's really not a post about how to prune for heat tolerance. It's really about "learning from the rose."

Smiles,
Lyn

PS ... this spring, I widened the bed where Mrs. J's HTs are planted from 8" to 3' and took out all of the companion plants. I made the deer cages more than twice as large and they have outgrown their cages twice this year. I am going to have to make them even bigger next spring.

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clipped on: 12.14.2012 at 03:02 pm    last updated on: 12.14.2012 at 03:02 pm

RE: Modern Hybrid Teas (Follow-Up #57)

posted by: roseseek on 11.28.2012 at 10:04 pm in Antique Roses Forum

How neat! I hope Too Cute behaves for you.

It COULD be that OGRs may have been resistant to the strains of fungi which existed when they were current. That's even harder to determine because when many were introduced, the heating oils and coal were much higher sulfur content than have been in use since. Earlier rose books bemoaned how this and that cultivar had "lost vigor through over propagation" because what had been healthy and vigorous, were no longer. What hadn't been considered was the nightly rain of fungicide the roses were bathed in from the dews and rains filtering the high sulfur levels out of the smoky city air. Once lower sulfur content fuels went into use, suddenly once healthy, vigorous roses "lost vigor through over propagation". OK.... Kim

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clipped on: 12.14.2012 at 03:00 pm    last updated on: 12.14.2012 at 03:00 pm

RE: Modern Hybrid Teas (Follow-Up #53)

posted by: bellegallica_zone9 on 11.28.2012 at 06:24 pm in Antique Roses Forum

Location. Location. Location.

I think the idea that all OGR's automatically have greater disease resistance to all moderns is a myth.

It all depends on what you're growing, and where you're growing it.

Black spot needs water and certain temperatures to germinate. According to U of Maine the conditions are:

As is true with most fungi, this fungus requires free water for infection to occur. The spores must be wet for at least 7 hours before they can germinate. A temperature of 65�F is best for spore germination and the disease develops most rapidly at about 75�F. Temperatures of 85�F and above inhibit the spread of the disease.

For people who grow roses in regions where the warm season coincides with the dry season, BS is never a problem.

If you grow roses where the wet and warm seasons coincide, that's another story. I live in one of those areas, and everything black spots to some degree.

Some roses might be more resistant than others, old or new. Some roses might have resistance to some strains of BS, but not to others.

In the end it's a gamble, and you just have to try different things.

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clipped on: 12.14.2012 at 02:58 pm    last updated on: 12.14.2012 at 02:58 pm

RE: Lifespan of a (grafted) rose? (Follow-Up #13)

posted by: roseblush1 on 11.07.2012 at 02:09 pm in Roses Forum

I have several budded hybrid teas planted by the previous owner of my home, Mrs. J, out in front of the house which I call "deer territory". Mrs. J was in her 90s when I bought the house and the roses had been neglected for decades. For several years, I neglected them, too, because I thought I didn't want to grow HTs and hoped they would just die.

The deer pruned them annually both in spring and fall. A couple of years ago, I caged them, but still didn't give them much attention. They were lucky to be watered because I was planting my roses up on the house pad level in back of my house and working on the deferred maintenance of the house.

Nope, they didn't die, but they did out grow the deer cages.
So, this year I decided to give them some attention. This is where I disagree with Kim about cultivating the bed. Mrs. J had planted them in a bed that was 8" wide. Actually, the two tiers are the retaining walls to hold up the lawn and to keep the house from sliding down the slope.

I widened the top tier from 8 inches to three feet, took out all of the companion plants, dug in a copious amount of compost and made the deer cages much, much larger and watered them regularly. (I used huge redwood planks milled in the forest to hold back the lawn and to make the slope stable.)

I did not prune them at all. Not even a rejuvenation pruning. I wanted them to put on new wood. The roses have out grown their much larger deer cages twice in one season ! Yes, I had to keep adding more compost to the bed as the compost I dug into the bed decomposed, but it was easy to do since the bed was much wider.

It's easy to say that the plants are successful because I am gardening in a warmer climate, but I don't think that is the real answer for these roses. My roses are subjected to freeze-thaw conditions all winter. My night temps drop below freezing and the day temps are always above freezing. I've decided the best answer is that it depends on the rose.

I think if I lived in a colder zone, I would probably mound them up so that they don't die back to the crown. Dave Boyd has written about growing tender roses in zone 4 in Montana on HMF and seems to have had success growing roses that were supposed too be to tender for his zone. I wouldn't prune off any wood until spring. I used to prune the roses when they were dormant, but that's pruning off their food supply. The rose may die back, but it often surprises me how the plant will use wood that I thought was dead. Now, I wait.

The one HT Mrs. J planted on the house pad level has had rejuvenation pruning. The rose is 'Tropicana'. It's huge, larger than any HT I have ever seen in an even milder climate.

I tend to break many of the old pruning rules because I think I need to prune to get a plant well foliated to handle the high temps of summer. That means I only prune out dead or diseased wood and maybe crossing wood, but I leave as much as I can, even wood that looks like it might not be productive. With this pruning method, along with the spring dis-budding for the curculios, all of my roses are larger than the norm and have lots of foliage which I think allows the plant to put out more bloom.

The budded HTs are 40 to 50 years old and are vigorous, viable plants with fantastic bloom production. The roses in the 8 inch bed did not go own root, but Dr. H sent roots out under the lawn.

The lesson I learned from my neglected roses is that, if they can come back so strongly with a revitalized soil and a slight change in my cultural practices, I've been underestimating what they can do all along. Every year, I find myself surprised by my roses.

Smiles,
Lyn

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clipped on: 12.14.2012 at 02:42 pm    last updated on: 12.14.2012 at 02:42 pm

RE: Lifespan of a (grafted) rose? (Follow-Up #12)

posted by: Strawberryhill on 11.07.2012 at 10:17 am in Roses Forum

I agree with Maryl that there are other factors besides rootstock, such as soil suitablity. Dr. Huey, a rambler known for drought-tolerant, doesn't like wet clay here, but great in Kim's dry clay in California. I have a wet-clay spot that a Knock-out grafted on Dr. Huey HATES IT. Then I put an own-root Meilland rose, and it bloomed like mad.

Own-root with Rugosa heritage like Austin Eglantyn HATES my alkaline clay, and its root shrank ... one died last winter. Meilland roses bred in alkaline clay France, and Kim Rupert's creations grow HUGE roots in my alkaline clay ... but Meilland roses didn't survive the winter for another in my zone 5a, with acidic loamy soil. In contrast, Meilland as own-roots are vigorous in my alkaline clay, and stand the best chance for zone 5a winter survival.

Soil suitability and where it's bred play a factor in winter survival. The Austins which were bred in a lime-free soil, are stingy here with my tap water high in lime. When it comes to own-roots, it's best to get roses that are bred in a soil/climate similar to mine.

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clipped on: 12.14.2012 at 02:40 pm    last updated on: 12.14.2012 at 02:40 pm

RE: Lifespan of a (grafted) rose? (Follow-Up #9)

posted by: cupshaped_roses on 11.06.2012 at 07:34 pm in Roses Forum

I do find the pruning observations interesting. Most of the pruning here is done by winterfrost - we sort of have no choice - and have to prune back to a clean pith.

It may however be a matter of rootstocks? Up until the 1980es - R. Canina species was most often used as rootstocks over here - (Rose Canina Pfanders in Germany - Rosa Canina Laxa in milder/warmer areas - like France and England - but most use R. Multiflora today.

Off course the variety/class of roses also seem to matter - but it could also come down to whether the rose goes own root or not as Straw points out (98 percent of the roses sold over here are bare-root (grafted) grafted roses - it is almost impossible to find ownroot roses here.

Polyanthas and hybrid musks almost always goes ownroot here - almost like gallicas - while I rarely see it happen to most modern roses - like Queen Elizabeth - grandiflora(your specimen sounds great Kim), hybrid teas, floribundas, and Austin roses.

I think I need to experiment more with own-roses!! All Meilland roses I have gotten from Meilland In france - are the worst quality bareroot roses I have ever seen - they look like tiny dahlia bulbs - and the rootstock almost always dies - but most often they have gone own-root by then - and actually begins to shape up after some years (I have dug up the tiny plants to see what was going on - and saw that the rootstocks were dead - but the canes had rooted themselves.

I sometimes wish our lives were longer ... it takes a lifetime of experimenting it seems.

Love Crimson Glory here too Straw - it does lack vigor here - but I like the Very Fragrant velvety blooms.

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clipped on: 12.14.2012 at 02:38 pm    last updated on: 12.14.2012 at 02:39 pm

Agree with Kim on the particular vigor of Peace (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: Strawberryhill on 11.06.2012 at 06:11 pm in Roses Forum

I agree with what Kim said, "We should also probably add the variety has to have inherent vigor and strength to begin with." Peace has 364 first descendants, for a total of 6,149 descendants if you count all the generations. Peace is very vigorous on own-root, and most likely grew their own-roots in your neighbor's 50 years old bed of Peace roses.

That's one of the reason why I paid membership to HMF so I can trace the descendants of Peace. The Meilland roses I grow with Peace heritage are VERY VIGOROUS as own-roots, they have no problems pushing their roots through my heavy clay. I once broke a shovel, plus a big rototiller machine in my rock-hard clay. Knowing the vigor of the parents helps in choosing roses that will do well as own-roots.

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clipped on: 12.14.2012 at 02:36 pm    last updated on: 12.14.2012 at 02:36 pm

RE: Lifespan of a (grafted) rose? (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: Strawberryhill on 11.06.2012 at 03:17 pm in Roses Forum

Hi Niels, great question! I researched on that, and it depends how well it's grafted, and if the bud union is left to dry out and callused, then the life-span is short. I should had bought the grafted Heirloom rose at Walmart when it's moist early April. I hesitated since I wasn't sure about the thorns. It sat at the store for 2 months, dried out, and the bud-union got callused. When I planted it in June, only one branch lived, the rest of it died (4/5 of the rootball). I killed it since it looks lopsided.

Old Heirloom Roses site wrote: "Own-root plants have some significant advantages and disadvantages over grafted plants. They tend to live longer due to not having a bud or graft union that calluses and hardens over time leaving little space on which new shoots can emerge." See the link below.

I once researched on this topic, and found someone who worked for Elizabeth Park in CT said they have to replace the roses since the life-span of a grafted one is short. I visited that park while living in CT and it was absolutely gorgeous, tons of blooms. Cantigny park here in IL with over 1,000 also replaced their beds through the past decade.

For my garden Knock-outs are 12 years old, but I bought them as big plants grafted in pots, rather than bare-roots, plus they grew their own-roots. I like own-roots better since it's more compact, well-branches, and more blooms for a smaller size. The grafted bare-root Heirloom rose took 2 months before giving me its first bloom on a lop-sided plant. In contrast, own-roots bloom immediately. Check out this 1-month old Crimson Glory, bought as a tiny band, but blooms IMMEDIATELY once put in a pot, picture taken this May:

Here is a link that might be useful: Own-root vs. grafted roses

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clipped on: 12.14.2012 at 02:34 pm    last updated on: 12.14.2012 at 02:34 pm

Lifespan of a grafted rose (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: roseseek on 11.06.2012 at 03:03 pm in Roses Forum

It appears to me there are many more factors involved in the appropriate answer to this question than just budded v. own root. My experience and my observations are that the harder you prune a budded plant, the shorter its life, at least in the climates in which I've grown roses in my area. I have seen hundreds of budded plants which have been "exhibition pruned" in the SoCal areas and which are very often one cane wonders and on their last legs after just a few years. Then, you have the Queen Elizabeth on the worst corner of my house (full, direct, all day sun; tremendous reflected/radiated heat, little moisture retention to the soil; moles; rabbits; gophers) budded, well over forty years old as it was enormous when the house was purchased in 1975. Its flowers are often in the second story living room window there. It gets a touch of rust but is well foliated ground to top and flowers twelve months of the year. From the looks of it, it's never been pruned shorter than four feet and it is NOT a climbing QE.

There is a 5' X 5' Gardens of the World beside it which is a first year bare root, meaning it is nearly twenty years old. It has never been hard pruned, in fact, usually it's only cut to keep it from covering the stairs. Not a text book example of a "well grown rose", but full of healthy leaves with hundreds of flowers year round, also.

A former co worker had an Angel Face tree rose his wife planted when they bought their house in the 70s, easily 30 years before I encountered it. The trunk was as thick as a man's upper arm with an enormous head on it, full of black spot, hips and flowers, but still going strong.

My youngest sister, in the next valley north, has three QE, budded plants on the south side of her driveway, the original owners who built the house, planted in 1966, when they built the house. She asked when she bought the house. They are MONSTERS! Also, not climbing forms of QE, but over eight feet in every direction every year, and also never harshly pruned. I'm positive all of these are on Dr. Huey as many have produced suckers over the years.

If the stock and variety are suited to the climate and conditions; if the scion and stock are compatible; if the plant is given at least what it needs to grow properly and doesn't suffer mechanical damage to permit entry to gall or otherwise significantly reduce its life expectancy; if the ground around them is NEVER "cultivated", producing a forest of root stock suckers from the broken roots; and if the plant is permitted the foliage mass it requires to feed itself, at least in the California climates, most budded roses can last MANY decades and perform amazingly. Hack them back to nothing every year; cultivate around them (the absolute obsession of the mow/blow/go crowd to pad time and increase billable hours), and they will quickly shrink back to one cane wonders, or flat out die in these parts.

It is possible to get dried out bare roots which never result in much, also. But, properly handled, properly produced, properly planted and maintained budded roses around here can last amazingly long times. Kim

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clipped on: 12.14.2012 at 02:33 pm    last updated on: 12.14.2012 at 02:33 pm

Problems with Own-roots on alkaline clay ... info. for Ingrid.

posted by: Strawberryhill on 12.07.2012 at 10:25 am in Antique Roses Forum

Hi Ingrid: I'm glad your Dark Lady blooms well. When I checked the info. on bloom color: soil high in phosphorus gives a color-shift to the red range, soil high in aluminum sulfate gives a color-shift to the blue range, regardless of the pH. Most likely your soil is already high in phosphorus, to get that bright red color in Dark Lady, and deep yellow in your Charles Darwin. At pH above 7 phosphorus is tied up with magnesium in clay soil, or calcium hydroxide (lime) in tap water.

Some plants roots are more effective in secreting acid to unlock phosphorus from soil. The link I posted in another thread "Acid phosphatase in plants' root" described cluster-root in secreting acid to draw out phosphorus in soil. Dr. Huey falls in that category ... my neighbor put a bed of Hybrid teas grafted on Dr. Huey and they bloomed like mad, even in our pH 7.7 rock-hard alkaline clay. Phosphorus is essential for root growth and blooms production.

The problem with some OWN-ROOT Austins that are stingy in alkaline soil: England has a high rainfall, pH of rain is acidic around 5.6. A vast region of England is acid to neutral soil pH. The type of roses that thrive in that wet acidic soil, won't do well as OWN-ROOT in a dry and alkaline soil. If David Austins select the roses with roots that secret acid, there would be a build-up of acid in an already acidic soil, leading to aluminum toxicity.

What I like about buying roses bred in the same climate and soil as mine is: They bloom well even when I water them with alkaline tap water. The own-root Romanticas and French Meilland roses bred in France, bloom well in 100 degree heat and alkaline clay. For 1st year gallon-size own-roots: Firefighter, a Meilland gabe 80+ blooms. Romanticas Sweet Promise, Bolero, Liv Tyler gave loads that I have to share with neighbors. Frederic Mistral gave 10 blooms since his roots are locked in my gluey creation of clay, peatmoss, grass clippings, aflafa meal, plus sulfur...they were fluffy at first, then became concrete chunks a few months later.

Recently I dump a bucket of tomatoes on top of commposted banana peels. The acidic tomatoes reacted with the potassium in banana peels to make an indestructible sheet ... I would need a leaf shredder to break it up. Say "no" to peatmoss in fixing alkaline clay ... I learned the hard way when I dug up plants to see their roots glued up in concrete chunks, plants become yellowish since their roots can't breathe.

I should had known better from my chemistry classes NOT to put acid and base together, they form precipitates. My pH 7.7 alkaline clay reacts with acidic peat moss, plus sulfur to form concrete, rather than fluffy soil that roots can expand.

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clipped on: 12.13.2012 at 08:31 pm    last updated on: 12.13.2012 at 08:31 pm

Why alfalfa tea works better than solid alfalfa (Follow-Up #14)

posted by: Strawberryhill on 12.10.2012 at 10:49 am in Antique Roses Forum

Mike_Rivers, a retired chemist and rosarian, posted the below in the Roses Forum in August regarding why alfalfa tea works best for growth hormone:

"Posted by mike_rivers z5 MI (My Page) on Wed, Aug 29, 12 at 12:22 I just noticed Kerin's question:

"Triacontanol is a alcohol ester found in plant cuticle waxes. Therefore, is it more correct to say that the 'fermenation' in making the tea is simply a means of releasing the ester from the cuticle so more is immediately available to the plants, or as mentioned above, is triacontanol actually fermented (made) *in* the tea-making process?"

Kerin, making the tea simply hydrolyzes the ester and sets free the alcohol, triacontanol. A couple of other things about triacontanol which might be interesting to think about: 1) Triacontanol is very insoluble in water and perhaps making the tea produces natural emulsifiers which help get it inside the plant where it can have an effect. 2)Triacontanol esters occur naturally on the surface of rose leaves. "

From Strawberryhill: Also the composting of organic matters like leaves do not result in neutral pH, the result is alkaline. The Chicago Botanical Garden (5,000 roses) reported a pH of 7.4 with composted leaves. Predfern in my Chicagoland also e-mailed me the University of Illinois field research that documented the net result as alkaline for composted leaves, no matter how acidic they are at the start of compost. Predfern is Ph.D. in Physical Chemistry.

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clipped on: 12.13.2012 at 08:21 pm    last updated on: 12.13.2012 at 08:21 pm

RE: Peat moss, alfalfa hay, alfalfa pellets, or alfalfa meal? (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: Strawberryhill on 12.09.2012 at 11:48 am in Antique Roses Forum

Thank you all for your inputs. Thank you, subk3, for that link to Alfalfa Chaffhaye. The feedstore said it's $12 for a bale of hay. It's good to learn from subk3 that hay it's bigger than the picture. One site said NOT to use alfalfa hay since it clumps up with water-run off.

I have no regret getting bags of fluffy leaves, but I got bags of grass clippings from the neighbor and it's still matted together, can't separate them. I agree that alfalfa is a miracle in producing new-growth. Here's a quote from the below site: "Alfalfa Meal contains high amounts of Vitamin A, Folic Acid, Thiamin, Riboflavin, Pantothenic Acid, Niacin, Tricontanol, a natural occurring growth hormone. " Thiamine is also used in rooting hormone. From the link below, the alfalfa meal looks like pellets to me, but the meal I got from the feedstore is 100% fine dust, it's listed as 17% alfalfa meal, the rest is glue? At least I get 100% alfalfa from a bale.

Here is a link that might be useful: Alfalfa meal for $4.45 from Parsonspestcontrol

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clipped on: 12.13.2012 at 08:13 pm    last updated on: 12.13.2012 at 08:13 pm

RE: Grow deep roots, reduce salt, and reduce watering (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: Strawberryhill on 12.13.2012 at 10:03 am in Antique Roses Forum

Happy Holidays, to Chris and Kim. I appreciate Kim's experience and logic. My neighbor ordered a big pile of dirt mixed with mushroom compost (horse manure & brown bedding). I tested the pH of his dirt, it's slightly less blue in red cabbage juice than mine (pH 7.7). At first he got the darkest green lawn in the neighborhood. But his lawn looked worst when there's hot weather and no rain, thanks to the salt content.

Mike_Rivers, a retired chemist, mentioned that horse manure is 1/4 the salt of other manures, with chicken manure the highest (per University of Colorado's data). I thought I could turn my azaleas and rhododrendrons dark-green by using acid fertilizer Lilly Miller 10-5-4 with chicken manure, but I killed 2 rhodos by using it 3 times: 10+10+10 equals 30 in Nitrogen, that's much higher than the 0.7 nitrogen per horse manure application. Sulfur is useless in turning my acid-plants dark green, it's the chelated iron that does the job. I tested Espoma garden sulfur on my acid plants, and they are still yellow.

For salt content, most damaging is urea and ammonium nitrate, around 80% salt index, it's like dumping a cup of salt on your rose bush. The lowest in nitrogen is anhydrous ammonia at 47%, but I don't see listed anywhere. Phosphorus: superphosphate is lowest in salt, at 7.8, and triple superphosphate at 10. For potassium, monopotassium phosphate (52% P and 35% K), has lowest salt at 8.4, and potassium chloride, use to de-ice in cold zone is a killer with 116.2%.

For organic sources, grass clippings, alfalfa, leaves are lowest, then blood meal, then horse manure, cow manure, and highest salt is chicken manure (also highest in nitrogen).

Here is a link that might be useful: University of Illinois data on salt index

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clipped on: 12.13.2012 at 08:10 pm    last updated on: 12.13.2012 at 08:10 pm

RE: Differing pruning philosophies - what's yours? (Follow-Up #21)

posted by: hoovb on 12.12.2012 at 12:13 pm in Antique Roses Forum

I started pruning moderately (25-30%) the established roses in spring but then "hard deadhead" (2-4') many throughout the year so I don't end up with monsters by September. This has worked out well. The garden looks good into December rather than looking like Sleeping Beauty has moved in but the Prince never showed up.

Roses get really large here. Most "compact" varieties have gotten large. It has been hard to find cultivars that do not eventually grow huge.

I don't touch the young (< 4 years) roses much, just dead wood and a snap-off of the flower so the hip does not form.

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clipped on: 12.13.2012 at 08:05 pm    last updated on: 12.13.2012 at 08:05 pm

RE: Differing pruning philosophies - what's yours? (Follow-Up #9)

posted by: melissa_thefarm on 12.09.2012 at 02:22 am in Antique Roses Forum

I'm still learning. I started from a no-prune position and have gradually learned when and how to prune; no doubt I still have many discoveries to make.
We live in a Zone 8 area but with abundant winter chill and snow, definitely a four-season climate. Aside from year-round cutting out of dead and badly compromised canes, especially during autumn cleanup after the annual summer heat-drought massacre, I begin pruning in late fall and go on until the end of winter/start of spring. I begin with the deciduous roses once they drop their leaves, then proceed to the more cold-hardy varieties that tend to want to hang on to their foliage, for example Bourbons and Hybrid Musks, and then, usually in March, I prune the Noisette and Tea climbers and such of the Teas and Chinas as require cutting back to keep them in bounds. By the way, Maurizio Usai, an Italian rosarian who posts here occasionally, advocates summer pruning of warm-climate roses, as this is their true dormant period, and he may well be right. I never seem to get around to it at that point, so continue with my current practice that works well, too.
How much and what kind of pruning I do depends on the rose. I don't cut back anything hard, and wimpy little plants get only dead growth removed. In the case of small, weak plants, I tend to leave on damaged canes if they're still partially functioning, until the plant makes new replacement growth. Shrub Teas and Chinas I prune mainly to contain them, sometimes removing a quarter to a third of the growth, and, though I don't know if this is a good idea, I remove some of the weak, old growth. Hybrid Musks seem to need to have old canes removed, cutting out the whole cane, otherwise the entire plant deteriorates, but I'm still experimenting with this. I have some plants in bad shape, but plan on rejuvenating them slowly, not cutting out all the old canes but just a portion. My 'Sally Holmes' looks like she needs such a treatment, and this worked for my (probable) 'Reynolds Hole', a Hybrid Perpetual with long, arching canes. It was almost dead until I began removing some of its old canes a year or two ago, but has begun growing new canes.
In the case of the once-blooming old roses, I usually cut out the oldest canes and leave it at that; some varieties that are very tall, sometimes lanky, like 'Great Maiden's Blush' or 'La Noblesse' I cut back the canes by a third or a half, but this doesn't work for all roses. Sometimes roses treated this way are just awkward looking; for example, I've learned not to do this with the shrub rose 'Fruhlingsduft', which needs its arching 6' canes to look right.
The climbing Noisettes and Teas, once they get going, need a solid annual pruning to remove tired old canes, clean out weak and diseased growth, and limit their exuberance. I do this at the end of winter when new growth provoked by the pruning is less likely to be hit by a late frost. 'Jaune Desprez', 'Crepuscule', 'Souv. de Mme. Leonie Viennot', 'Cl. Mrs. Herbert Stevens', and 'Duchesse d'Auerstaedt' are my current roses that fall in this category, and they respond well to this treatment. The Lady Banks roses can apparently just be left to grow. I suspect that the more tender Barbier ramblers need the same treatment as the Tea and Noisette climbers.
A few years ago I cut back 'Noelle Nabonnand' hard at the end of summer because it had fifteen foot canes and was all over the garden. It sulked for the next three years or so, and only this year began growing vigorously again. So I learned to be careful about hard pruning climbers, though I don't know exactly what my mistake was: cutting off so much growth all at once? cutting back in the late summer? In any case I learned caution.
Melissa

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RE: Differing pruning philosophies - what's yours? (Follow-Up #8)

posted by: ingrid_vc on 12.09.2012 at 12:22 am in Antique Roses Forum

For me it depends on the rose. Some, like Burgundy Iceberg and Cottage Rose "tell" me they want to be pruned. I left them alone one year and they did poorly the next without pruning. Some roses, like most of my teas, I've barely touched. The same is true of my Bourbons, which are all short varieties. Mutabilis seems to like a good haircut once in a while, especially when it's fertilized with alfalfa at the same time. I have no hard and fast rules because I have many different classes of roses and they seem to have very differing needs. A lot also depends on the age of the rose and how large I would eventually like it to be.

Ingrid

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RE: Thinking about Hybridizing (Follow-Up #4)

posted by: harmonyp on 11.15.2012 at 12:19 am in Roses Forum

Thank you guys SO much for your very thorough answers. Seil - I didn't even realize we could email one another via Gardenweb - thank you for getting me to look for that link, and yes I'd LOVE your .pdf!!!

The links are awesome. The energy is awesome. Kim, you read my mind on walking before I run. Being an absolute neurotic deadheader, fortunately I have some set hips that have escaped my deadhead efforts, and I'm leaving absolutely every last remaining head, and will spend the winter planting as many seeds as I can, and don't plan on trying to hybridize until I'm successful on that front. As well as trying to root a lot of cuttings, with a myriad of methods.

Both Kim & Seil, I didn't realize helpmefind membership gave the pedigree information I wanted - I'll become a member post haste. Seil, I went to the link you showed, and it brought me to the "this is the pedigree you get if you're a member" on Betty Boop (AQHA used to use Genuine Doc) and it looks just like an AQHA (American Quarter Horse Assoc.) pedigree - go figure. I was pretty heavy into the horse breeding industry over the past decade or so, and published some articles on reining horse breeding and pedigrees, and I really miss the pedigree research. Now that it's pretty darned well ingrained, and since horse breeding is so crazy expensive that ... well ... no more need be said. Rose pedigree research can help fill that void! Color genetics in horses is quite predictable, I'm betting that's not even in the cards for rose breeding.

A question that I hadn't thought to ask, as I just made the assumption in advance that one couldn't hybridize patented roses. But then Kim, you brought up rose sexual reproduction, and I seem to remember seeing over and over again the restriction to not use patented roses in asexual reproduction. Are all roses up for grabs for hybridizing (I know not for cuttings which I'm presuming is asexual reproduction)? Or are there restrictions?

Thanks again. Will try not to bombard this forum with questions (I know there is a lot of very in-depth how-to information out there).

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RE: Thinking about Hybridizing (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: roseseek on 11.15.2012 at 01:18 am in Roses Forum

Wow Karen! I didn't know you were that into the breeding of horses! You're going to take to this like a duck to water! There are some threads of color which may make sense, but mostly the "default" is pink. Most of what you cross is going to give you pink in some shade. There is a marvelous article by E.B. LeGrice on breeding funny colors, which I've linked below. (Thank you Paul Barden!) There is a chart for predicting rose colors at this link.

http://www.love-of-roses.com/predict-rose-seedling-color.html

You may breed with patented roses to your heart's content! There is one exception, so far. You can't breed with Cal Gene Pacific's "Applause", the "blue" florist rose, as that 'blue' gene is patented and they can trace it and sue you for using it if it is to their advantage. Otherwise, any rose is fair game to mix it up with. I'm so glad you're one step ahead on trying your own self set hips. It's heart breaking reading an email from someone whom you've encouraged, that they put in all this effort and then nothing germinated because they were planted too deeply or the medium was too wet, or some other issue which could have been discovered before the actual crosses were made.

Yes, breeding is sexual reproduction. Propagation is asexual. Anything patented or whose propagation rights are reserved (PRR) are out of bounds. All others are fair game.

One other propagation method you may really enjoy is Burling Leong's Chip Budding. She's prepared a marvelous article at this address.

http://www.heritagerosefoundation.org/4resources/Rosa Mundi/10/RM10_Leong.pdf

It's EASY and it WORKS! Not for everything, but for pushing things to get them going quickly while you observe them, it is great.

If you're more comfortable, come on over to the RHA,

http://www.rosebreeders.org/forum/list.php?2

with your breeding questions. That's what it is there for! Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: LeGrice Unusual Rose Colors on Paul Barden's site

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RE: Thinking about Hybridizing (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: roseseek on 11.14.2012 at 04:35 pm in Roses Forum

Hi Karen, welcome! You're going to have a ball!

Your questions...

1. Is it Ok to use an unknown as a parent? Is this often done, or frowned upon?

Of course! If the unknown has traits you're interested in, go for it. That's something which is done (or at least reported as having been done) all the time.

2. Interested in other's experiences - what was your initial success/failure ration. Is it possible to get a success in your first group, or can you expect to try hundreds of times before having your first success?

That's hit and miss. Some get great results right away. Others of us take forever but eventually get interesting things. Forty years go, it was reported only one out of ten-thousand seedlings was worth introducing by J&P, but they were traditionally raising HT X HT which resulted in a lot of inbreeding of a very limited gene pool. If you're repeating that trend, those could easily be your expected results. If you're mixing things up, using modern roses with species or some other "out there" direction, you may hit something worth spreading around in your first batch. As I said, it's hit and miss.

3. What makes a good hybridizer. Is it an exercise in patience and persistence, or is there some special artistic "magic" that must be within the individual hybridizer?

"Hybridizer" would be patience, persistence and research. A good "Selector" is someone with a good eye, "artistic magic". You might breed some very good things, but if you're not seeing the good in them, you'll throw away some pretty interesting things. Joe Winchell had some very interesting results, some of which were suitable for florist production, a few for landscape and garden. Ralph Moore offered to put him in touch with people who could promote and market those types, but Joe was so narrowly focused on his exhibition HT, insulin needle, high centered form, he wasn't interested. He probably tossed some decent roses as a result. Even Ralph had to rely upon other peoples' visions for some of his creations. He was so focused on his minis, when he created Pink Powderpuff, his Hulthemias and other larger roses, his most frequent question was, "think someone would buy it?"

4. I have heard that if you plant seeds from a self-pollinated rose, that you won't get children like the parent. Why is that? Because you can't "know" for certain who the father is? or other?

Both. Roses have more genes than humans. The possible traits expressed are much greater than what is possible between two people. Some of the lines imprint themselves heavily on the seedlings and have such characteristic traits, you can often look at the seedling and make a good educated guess who one parent was. Others, give such way out results, who could have guessed? Breed with Little Artist. 99% of its seedlings look very much like it, no matter what you crossed with it. Some roses are chameleons. They take on the other parent's characteristics so readily, they are very useful in getting other traits into "better" lines. Better being healthier, more vigorous, etc. Probably the best answer to that question is, when you raise a seed, it is sexual reproduction, which is never an identical genetic copy of the parent. With all those genetic possibilities behind the seed parent, even if it isn't a cross between two varieties, there are so many possibilities, the seeds can, or might not, look anything like the parent. But, some will. That's something you'll learn as you raise more seedlings. If you keep using some of the same roses each year, you develop a feel for what is possible from that rose and can eventually see it in its offspring.

5. I have read that each seed from a single hybridized hip will produce a different child. So should you plant as seeds from the same hip as possible, then try to find the "best" result. Then - do you just have that single plant to propogate from? Or might you be able to get multiple of a relatively "same" result from the same cross in the same hip? Different hips?

Nope. Each seed is genetically distinct. There are only two instances I've ever read of where two, different roses, raised by different breeders, in different parts of the world have been deemed so similar, they were considered synonymous. That's two out of probably millions of seedlings, many thousands of introduced roses. When you raise a seedling you wish to replicate, you have to go back to that precise seedling to propagate from it. All of its siblings are going to differ from it enough to not be interchangeable. Once you begin researching the breeding lines on HMF, you will see that.

6. Can more than one rose be patented having the same parents? (Like 2 with Father = rose 1 and mother = rose 2)

Absolutely! Each one is distinct, different. There are many instances of that. Oklahoma, Mr. Lincoln, Papa Meilland all have the same parents and all were patented. Each one is different. You're patenting that specific genetic combination, not all the possible combinations from those parents.

7. Rose pedigree research - are there resources that give access to see what children a particular rose has fathered or mothered ? Finding "magic" crosses?

Yes. The laborious route is buying all the Modern Rose editions and then reading them. The fastest, easiest, most fun way is to buy a premium membership for HMF for $24 a year which gives you full access to all of that information on the site. It is INVALUABLE! Not only can you search for all the offspring of a particular rose, but you can easily follow breeding lines and often SEE color images of the results...at the click of a button. All for $2 a month! You'll love it! Reading what created what is fine, but SEEING what created what is so much more educational.

8. Any related advice would be greatly appreciated.

Browse the Rose Hybridizers Association. Read the linked articles. Ask questions there and here. Research the roses which are really good where you are. Research their offspring. Research what is really bad where you are and look for common ancestors. Playboy is an extremely popular breeder. Playboy is addicted to rust in this climate. MOST of its offspring are, too. I avoid Playboy. I don't want to engineer rust into my line. It's virtually identical to breeding animals. If you know a particular 'stud' has health or behavioral issues, you avoid using it or its progeny. If you know strongly multiflora types are going to either be prone to mildew, RRD or chlorosis and any (or all) of those are issues where you are, avoid using those types.

Pay attention to those roses which set their own hips without you. They are likely to be good seed parents. If a rose usually doesn't set seed, it may not be useful for you where you are as a seed parent. Iceberg doesn't set hips at all in the inland hot valleys. It sets hips like a bloody fruit tree where it's cooler and damper. Raise self set seed from the roses in your garden. What benefit is it to you to create seeds if you haven't learned to germinate them where you are? Practice on the freebies your roses provide you. They cost you virtually nothing. That will also help show you which of the hip setters also makes viable seed. Why waste resources pollinating a rose which won't set seed?

Creating your own seed before learning how to germinate and grow them is like waiting to learn how to root or bud when you've finally gotten the material you've really wanted and waited for. Both are very much like waiting until the day of your huge vacation to finally buy the expensive, involved camera you've always wanted. None of them are going to do you much good because you haven't learned how to make them work, nor have you overcome the fear causing you to permit the situations to overwhelm you. Sure, if the stars align perfectly, you might have success, but how much more fun to stack the deck in your favor, learn how to make it all work then succeed in your early attempts? Initial failures can be overwhelming to many people. Fail at what doesn't matter first. Save your "creations" for when you KNOW how to make it work.

Don't give up. Don't let it overwhelm you. Keep it simple, inexpensive and streamlined, unless you're the type of person who loves making the simple, complicated. That's totally valid, but the harder, more complicated and time consuming you make it, the less likely you will be to actually DO it.

If it helps, I put together this entry on pollinating roses to answer questions several friends sent me. I hope the photos help. Please feel free to make use of any of it you desire, or not, your choice.

There are many roads to success with this, just as there are in growing roses. Not all are suitable for each climate, nor individual. Keeping it simple, fun, inexpensive, makes it possible for me to pollinate a ton of things quickly all summer long. Of course, it resulted in far more seed than I can raise, but that affords the luxury of selecting those most important to me. I couldn't have done it had my process taken a lot of prep time. Find what works best with your habits, your logic, your mind and then just explore. You're going to love it! Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Pollinating roses

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clipped on: 12.12.2012 at 06:11 pm    last updated on: 12.12.2012 at 06:11 pm

RE: Thinking about Hybridizing (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: henry_kuska on 11.14.2012 at 04:55 pm in Roses Forum

My rose hybridizing information is at:

http://home.roadrunner.com/~kuska/rosepublicationsindex.htm

AND

http://home.roadrunner.com/~kuska/rosehybridizinglinks.htm

------------------------------------

Good luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: link for 1st link above

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RE: Thinking about Hybridizing (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: seil on 11.14.2012 at 04:12 pm in Roses Forum

Oh, I'm glad you're thinking of giving it a try! It's so much fun! In your climate you can probably do it any time of year but for me it's my sanity keeper in the winter when I don't have my roses to tend to. I'm sure other people with more experience will chime in but here are my answers.

1. No it's not frowned upon to use unknown roses or to have open pollinated (OP) seed. But if you do have the right parents names it is appreciated if you list them when you register a rose. Breeders like to have some idea of what roses went into the roses they're using in their breeding programs so they can look for certain traits. Some breeders don't disclose the parents because they don't want other people doing the same work they're doing. But for the most part sharing knowledge and information is encouraged when ever possible. I use a lot of OP seeds because I'm still working on mastering the art of cross pollination. I think I did better this year and have several hips in the fridge right now from crosses I made in June. OP seeds means you don't exactly know where the pollen came from that fertilized the hips. In a lot of cases they could be self pollinated but if there are other roses in the area the pollen could possibly be from those too, spread by the bees and other insects. If you're making your own crosses use labels on the hips and keep good records so you'll know what the parentage is on your seedlings. When labeling always put the seed or hip parent (mother) first then the pollen parent (father) like this (Mom's Rose X Father's Day).

2. I got dozens of germinations the first time I tried it. Depending on the variety of rose hips you have they really aren't very hard to do at all. I found I had no problem getting them to germinate. My problem was in not killing the tiny, tender little things when I transferred them into the growing medium. It takes patience and practice but you'll get some results right away. It got to the point where I had more seedlings than I could handle or had space for!

3. A good hybridizer is anyone! You just need to be creative and patient. Don't be afraid to experiment and try crossing things...everything...and see what happens. Yes, there are a lot of really excellent and professional people out there who have done extensive work toward specific goals. They're good. Very good! But they all started out just trying things first until they came to the path that they wanted to follow to breed that certain rose. And along the way they bred some pretty great things they weren't aiming for too! It's all in the mix of the genes.

4. With the exception of some species roses which do breed true from seed no two seeds will grow the same rose and they will not be the same as the rose they came from. That's because each seed has a new mix of genetic material in it. Oh, OP seeds may breed a lot of roses that look similar to the parent rose in many ways but genetically they will not be the same rose. They can have genes from the pollen parent (father), the seed parent (mother) or any of the roses that went into the make up of those parents back on up their family trees.

5. OY! This ones complicated. Yes, plant all the seeds and see what they'll produce. Look for the ones that you like best, the form, color, health, fragrance, whatever it is you're looking for. And look for surprises. Those two lovely pink roses you crossed may give you 10 pink seedlings but it might also throw in one yellow or red one you didn't expect. Or they may all be 5 petaled singles except for seedling 9 which has 30 petals! As for health, that's hard to say. Some people ditch ones that seem disease prone very quickly. Others will hold on to them for a couple of years to see if they out grow they're weakness. I tend to keep mine for at least a couple of years and let them get some size before I decide to toss any for disease reasons. Once you've found that special one then in order to propagate that one further you'll need to do rooted cuttings or grafting in order to produce more of that exact same rose. Seeds from it will produce new varieties not the same one.

6. Yes, you can have many roses with the same parents patented because each one is a different rose. If you go to HMF and look up the lineages of a lot of roses you'll see that there are a lot of roses that have been used over and over again in breeding programs and have had a lot of offspring registered.

7. HMF gives both the parental tree and the offspring tree of roses This is the lineage page for Peace.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.2203&tab=21
You'll see there are both parental and descendant sections.

8. Best advice I can give you is just give it a try, experiment and figure out what works best for you. I do have a pdf paper on how I do mine that I'd be happy to send you if you're interested. Just PM me with your email address and I'll get it right out to you. Or any one else who is interested!

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clipped on: 12.12.2012 at 06:09 pm    last updated on: 12.12.2012 at 06:09 pm

RE: Biggest Surprise for 2012? (Follow-Up #75)

posted by: beth on 11.21.2012 at 12:36 pm in Roses Forum

Campanula, I'm so jealous of you & your EYES FOR YOU! Now that's a rose we need to get over here in the US! But, a really lovely "similar" rose I got from Edmunds this season that did very well for me is BULL'S EYE. Beautiful Hulthemia big-eyed blooms that change color and repeat really well. Loved it!
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And a new one I got from Pickering from Fryer's is JAM & JERUSALEM. Lovely apricot-y peachy blooms that repeated really well throughout the season. Kind of a shortish plant, but very lovely.
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Yet another one I got from Pickering is LET'S CELEBRATE, another Fryer rose. This first season it didn't do all that great, but the deer got to it a couple of times. But the blooms are going to be very interesting to watch over the next few yrs as the plant matures. It's a very interesting mauve with a white reverse, and it's supposed to get all speckly and spotty. Mine did a little bit, but, like I said the deer got to it so I only ever got the one flush on it. Plus it's in a pot in a not-so-sunny area of the yard. I think I need to move it... or just get it in the ground!
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And a rose I got from Vintage at the end of the season here, is PICNIC. The cute little plant arrived with two whopping blooms that lasted for weeks! I'm gonna love this one!!
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Oh, and one of my absolute favorites from this yr was actully one of the J&P test roses. Not sure if they will every release it, but I sure hope so. It's gorgeous!!
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I certainly hope someone does start selling BLUE FOR YOU again soon. You guys are missing out on a truly gorgeous and verrry "blue" rose! Got mine from Cliff before he closed up, and it's been a real stunner. It's in mostly shade. Does really well!
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RE: Biggest Surprise for 2012? (Follow-Up #76)

posted by: roseseek on 11.21.2012 at 01:47 pm in Roses Forum

It's ironic, Beth, but I just received an email from Tom Carruth about Eyes for You. He said they tested it at Week's for three years and couldn't get a plant under it. It didn't grow well for them either budded or own root. Fortunately, that hasn't been my experience with it potted (own root) here. They tested Bull's Eye and decided on that one instead, probably because it grew better for them, even though it is subject to mildew where Eyes doesn't seem to be. Lack of vigor is also reported from the extreme south of Australia, but not so much from Britain, so it appears it's milder conditions Eyes seems to prefer.

Piecing information together, it seems both Bull's Eye and Eyes for You are of the same breeding. Both stem from CHEWtingle, the SCRIVbell X (Tigris X Baby Love) seedling, crossed with Blue for You. What a break Blue for You appears to be! Eyes for You appears to have inherited its wonderful disease resistance (and scent!) from Blue for You. Other than how long the flowers last in my climate, I find nothing objectionable about Blue for You! I hope someone succeeds in licensing it here so it can easily be offered again. Both of these are great garden roses for me, with amazing scents and gorgeous blooms! Kim

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RE: Biggest Surprise for 2012? (Follow-Up #59)

posted by: Strawberryhill on 11.07.2012 at 10:32 pm in Roses Forum

Hi Camp: I'm so sorry to hear about your Summer Song. My Austin Eglantyne is the same ... I wasted money on it twice, one died last winter, and the new one gave me only 2 blooms. Thanks for the info. on the creator of Rhapsody in Blue.

Hi Bluegirl: I'm posting this new surprise for me, Norwich Sweetheart mini. It's loaded with blooms after many frosts in November, my zone 5a. The scent is so potent that it perfumes my entire patio. It's a very refreshing scent, better than Crimson Glory. It's so small that you won't need a team of gorillas to chop holes for you, some baby squirrels that bury nuts for the winter would do. It's cheap too, only $7.50 from Burlington in California. She sells Kim's stuff like Annie L. McDowell, Lynnie, Lauren, and other purples like International Herald Tribune, Stephen's Big Purple, plus 380 big roses and 160 minis. Below is a pic. of mini rose Norwich Sweetheart, the bloom is big, very fragrant, and double. It makes good cut-flower:

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RE: Biggest Surprise for 2012? (Follow-Up #58)

posted by: campanula on 11.07.2012 at 04:05 pm in Roses Forum

Eyes for You has been revelatory - there are fresh fat buds even now. In general, the hulthemias have been astoundingly healthy, resisting the usual late summer blackspot-fest in east anglia. Completely new to me was a single lilac, Odyssey, bred by the same chap who created Rhapsody in Blue and Purple Skyliner (Frank Cowlishaw). I think, Kim, that he also works very closely with Peter James (Eyes and Blue) and Chris Warner. Certainly, Odyssey has been a cool slatey colour without any pink tones and has a vigour which is often lacking in mauve roses.
Most joyous rose has been Scharlachglut. I bought this to act as an allotment endstop, opposite a huge R.moyesii at the opposite end. Even after only one year, it has glowed in front of a seedling rowan tree with a massive clump of glaucous euphorbia at its feet. And the heps!
This year, to my distress, I actually killed a Paul's Scarlet Climber while Hot Chocolate was particularly feeble. Most horrid of all though, is an Austin - Summer Song. What a disaster. One huge cane with 2 measly blooms at the end. No matter what I tried (extra feeding, pruning, water, threatening), it simply sulked and scowled. Destined for the compost heap (a drastic act, hardly ever resorted to because I am cheap - a plant really has to be a bummer).

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RE: Biggest Surprise for 2012? (Follow-Up #25)

posted by: Strawberryhill on 11.01.2012 at 11:56 am in Roses Forum

Hi Diane: I have the same problem with tree roots stealing water from Sonia Rykiel, I'll move her elsewhere. One guy in the Soil Forum claimed that he successfully kept the deer away by peeing the entire length of his garden. Irish Spring Soap worked well here in keeping the animals away, but our constant rain in spring and fall would turn my garden into a bubble bath.

Since I promised Vicky in our Chicagoland that I'll post pics of my favorite bush, Annie L. McDowell, bred by Kim Rupert (Roseseek), I'll post the flower first, then its 100% thornless branch taken today at 40 degrees temp, it's droopy since I transferred from pot to ground recently. Annie L.M. has the prettiest foliage in my garden, zero prickles. Jay-Jay in the Netherlands posted pics of his grafted Annie with a tiny bit of prickle, but my Annie L.M. from Burlington is 100% smooth. Annie's scent is the biggest surprise: a heavenly mix of lilac and lavender ... she leads the pack, beating Comte de Chambord and all Austins.

Photobucket

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RE: Biggest Surprise for 2012? (Follow-Up #23)

posted by: roseseek on 11.01.2012 at 01:43 am in Roses Forum

I think you're thinking of Mrs. Charles Bell instead of Arthur Bell, Bluegirl. I don't blame you. Blue for You NEEDS to be re released here. I can well imagine the issue is licensing as it IS patented here in the US. If anyone is going to release it, I would expect it to be Heirloom as they are the final stop for all the EuroDesert material and Cliff imported and sold it. Vintage had a very few plants according to their web site, but I'm still betting on it being Heirloom to eventually release it. Kim

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RE: Biggest Surprise for 2012? (Follow-Up #9)

posted by: ingrid_vc on 10.29.2012 at 01:02 pm in Roses Forum

My Souvenir de la Malmaison comes as close to being a perfect rose as possible. No disease or even yellow or crummy-looking leaves, constant, fragrant blooms that stayed pink during the summer, constant new growth and blooms, and growing like gangbusters. It doesn't have a single negative except that it may outgrow its space. I can say almost the same for its sport, Kronprinzessin Viktoria von Preussen.

A more quiet victory has been Spice, which I'd considered getting rid of because I needed the space and it was just sitting there. When I removed a giant day lily near it, mulched, watered and fertilized it well, and disbudded it regularly, it decided to grown and show me what it could really do. It's staying and I'm looking forward to the spring bloom, at which time of course I'll stop disbudding it. I'm a firm believer now that disbudding will revive roses that arent't growing well, are losing their leaves and looking gaunt, and that just need a general overhaul.

I'm hoping that my surprise rose for 2013 will be Earth Song, planted a few weeks ago. I can't wait to see what the bloom looks like, although I'll be disbudding that one too. I'd like a fairly large bush next year with lots of flowers to look forward to next year.

Ingrid

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RE: Biggest Surprise for 2012? (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: roseseek on 10.28.2012 at 11:14 pm in Roses Forum

Eyes for You and Blue for You, hands down! Both are simply gorgeous; incredibly fragrant and totally disease and insect free the whole year. And, both are still pumping out flowers. I haven't been this completely impressed with a rose in a very long time, and there are TWO of them! Kim

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RE: Opinions on re-potting this late in the season (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: roseseek on 11.25.2012 at 02:45 pm in Roses Forum

I'd repot them, period. If you get hard freezes, larger soil balls insulate better than small ones. If you don't, larger root balls tend to remain damper than smaller ones, so keeping them watered should be easier. They're likely to continue growing in the pots over winter (in most climates). Why risk having them become too root bound over winter when you could easily benefit from that time, permitting them to develop faster? It's probably more comfortable for YOU to repot now than when it's hotter (and probably more humid), so why not? It's almost bare root time, anyway, so any root disturbance which may occur is probably easier for them to handle now than it may be later. Unless they are already so densely root bound they need loosening, I would personally not loosen or trim any roots if at all possible, but just slip the soil balls into new, large masses of potting soil. Kim

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RE: 1rst order from Burlington! (Follow-Up #33)

posted by: roseseek on 12.05.2012 at 01:42 pm in Roses Forum

Kitty, as long as mother plants are kept juvenile, grown well, pruned properly to stimulate new basals to replace all the old, woody, unproductive material, it remains productive and can be properly propagated from. Some varieties are going to become geriatric more quickly. Some because of genetics, some because of climatic unsuitability, some because of improper sight placement or bad culture, and those will have to be replaced more frequently. It's been common in several nurseries I've been familiar with to grow mother plants of difficult varieties in large cans to more easily maintain and keep track of them. For some, such as Grey Pearl, Fantan, Polly and any others which grow reluctantly and can easily go sour on you for no apparent reason, growing many propagation plants simultaneously is the only way to go. But, yes, eventually the mother plants should be replaced. Some much sooner and much more frequently than others. Kim

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RE: 1rst order from Burlington! (Follow-Up #29)

posted by: roseseek on 12.04.2012 at 11:00 pm in Roses Forum

I've seen it work both ways, Kitty. Very often, you really can't determine why a cutting just fails to thrive. You can theorize and experiment with many variables and many will respond to something, but not all. It could be the weaker one hadn't the stored resource levels the more vigorous one did. Perhaps it dried out somewhere along the way and hasn't caught up yet? There are many possibilities and what you "should" do depends upon whether paying for a new plant exceeds the amount having two identical plants is worth to you.

Very often, trying to propagate from an older, more geriatric plant can be extremely difficult. As the wood ages, the capillaries do constrict, reducing sap flow and causing the geriatric plant to become less productive and less vital and vigorous. You see it more with plants which haven't reproduced themselves, kept themselves more vital through basal production. "One cane wonders" frequently become just this type of plant. Trying to root cuttings from these often results in more failures than successes.

Propagating at The Huntington as a volunteer, I frequently encountered the issue. Clair Martin, the Curator of Roses at the time, said you frequently had to "reintroduce juvenility" into the variety to make it easier to propagate. Once you can get a cutting to take and gain momentum, propagating from the new plant has been tremendously easier than from the old, woody one. What made the most sense to me about this is the old plant was likely malnourished from reduced sap flow, so cuttings taken from it lacked all the necessary resources to propagate as easily. Once the plant was new, with more open capillaries and better sap flow, cuttings from it most often rooted much faster and easier, probably because they had more of what they required for propagation. We'd frequently propagate from newly produced plants instead of the old bushes because they rooted faster and easier. Kim

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RE: 1rst order from Burlington! (Follow-Up #18)

posted by: Strawberryhill on 12.01.2012 at 12:34 pm in Roses Forum

Hi Bluegirl: I like your approach in breaking up limestone soil... I'm doing the same with composted pine mulch (acidic) mixed with my clay soil. Six months later I dug up the hole and it's nice and fluffy, no more gluing up like peat moss or mixed-in-horse-manure.

There's a discussion on whether sulfur is necessary to adjust high pH of soil, in the soil forum. The vote from experienced folks is "No", just plant the right stuff that do well in that range. Dr. Huey is an aggressive root system, very good in secreting acid which breaks through my heavy clay easier than my shovel. I found his root extending 4 feet in all directions in my rock-hard clay. My neighbor put a bed of HT's grafted on Dr. Huey - they bloomed like mad the first year, but died through our zone 5a winter.

See below link for Acid phosphatase of plant roots. Cluster root like Dr. Huey is known to secret acid to break through clay soil. The humic acid released from composted pine bark also conditions clay soil. The roots of Meiland roses like Firefighter and Romantica Sweet Promise Hybrid tea are extremely aggressive as own-root. I can't even plant annuals close to those HTs', it's a web-like dense root system. They give me tons of blooms as 1st year own-roots. There are plenty of phosphorus for root-growth and blooming in my limestone clay soil, and some plant roots can easily unlock the phosphorus-tied-up in calcium or magnesium.

Here is a link that might be useful: Acid phosphatase secretion by roots

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RE: 1rst order from Burlington! (Follow-Up #16)

posted by: lookin4you2xist on 11.30.2012 at 11:29 pm in Roses Forum

Floridarose - Phytosanitary Certificates Required For The Following States: Arizona, Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Hawaii, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oregon, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia. I'm going to do a very large order in the Spring. I hope to pick up some Ralph Moore roses I do not have, as well as a lot of others I'm sure. Can not wait! I've been wanting to buy from her for years!
Regards,
Andrew

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RE: 1rst order from Burlington! (Follow-Up #14)

posted by: Strawberryhill on 11.30.2012 at 08:42 pm in Roses Forum

Hi Bluegirl and Jeri: You are right that China roots easily. A majority of minis are descendants of China. Minis like heat. I gave my 2 minis away since they are stunt in my constant rain and poor-drainage wet clay.

Since my soil is high in limestone, bone meal and rock phosphate is useless in pH above 7, phosphorus is tied up with calcium and magnesium at pH above 7 (per University of Colorado Extension info). Once I brought the pH down with peatmoss and composted pine bark, it worked. There's a way around the high pH problem: soluble phosphorus. There's an Australian paper on phosphorus works better in soluble, or liquid form. Chicago Botanical Gardens with 5,000 roses, pH of 7.4, recommends a 20-20-20 soluble fertilizer 3 times a year for zone 5.

From your list, Bluegirl, Louis Odier, Crimson Glory, and Marie Pavie are all vigorous in alkaline clay, and will grow roots easily, if there's plenty of moisture. Those stand the best chance of survival as bands.

I like what Kim Rupert once wrote: "The larger the rootball, the smaller the chance of it dying due to extreme heat or cold." Romanticas grows HUGE rootballs as own-roots in my alkaline clay, they stand the best chance of survival in my zone 5a.... but they died on someone else in Chicagoland with acidic soil. Comte de Chambord is hardy to zone 4, but it hates my alkaline soil, and has tiny root - the chance of winter survival is slim. In contrast, Annie Laurie McDowell's rootball is at least 2 gallons, her chance is good in my zone 5a, although she died on Seil, zone 6b.

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RE: 1rst order from Burlington! (Follow-Up #11)

posted by: roseseek on 11.30.2012 at 03:24 pm in Roses Forum

You know, what many don't consider is not all plants are equal. Not all cuttings are equal. Some propagate easily and well, others do not. Some cuttings take off like a house afire, others don't. Many WILL make it, IF given the appropriate treatment.

Here is an extreme example. Both are the same rose (Annie Laurie McDowell); both are from the same batch of cuttings, propagated identically (wrapped), at the same time, January 2012.

This one was from the "ideal" cutting, grown on from the foam cup into a gallon then two gallon and planted in one of the worst spots I have, but the only place I have to maintain a climber where I can actually enjoy it. This is the south side of the house, with full, southern heat and sun. The soil is the average "junk dirt" this hill is made of. There are many moles which will not be denied their space. There is tremendous reflected heat and laser beam sun reflected off the mirrored living room window above it to the right. I don't do ladders, never have, so I have to wait to budget hiring someone to build a suitable shade to go over that window. These plants get burned by the reflected light off that window. It was sufficient to kill the tomatoes I tried growing there. The plants are caged in wire to prevent the moles from getting right into the root balls, but they loosen the soil around the cages so there is water stress.
DSCN2951
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This was propagated from the terminal, actual flowering tip of the cane. It is what is usually said not to use as there are no growth buds to form new growth. I did it as an experiment and it rooted. I grew it in the 16 oz foam cup, then into the "pot" it currently grows in. I posted earlier photos of it on my blog.

The cutting took and formed a basal from the callus at the bottom. All photos are from about an hour ago. Wood with NO growth buds has produced this shoot.
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Failure to thrive is common with any production of any plant type, any variety, any rose. Many haven't made it into production simply because they refused to produce sufficient percentages of suitable plants. Harkness, in his book, Roses, wrote of Pink Favorite that to nurserymen it was a "boring rose". Every bud produced a Grade 1 plant which flourished. J&P tried Henry Fonda own root, even advertised it would be offered the following year as a "New Generation Rose" (own root) then had to back track because while it would root, it didn't produce the quality of plant required. Week's tried Midnight Blue as their "Shrublet" own root roses and found the same, yet you can find them offered own root by others today.

I recently had correspondence with Tom Carruth over just this. He emailed me asking how Eyes for You grows for me. He stated they tested it at Week's for three years and it refused to grow for them. To be commercially viable, a rose has to produce at least 60% Grade 1 plants from either budding or own root. Eyes for You barely produced 40% Grade 1 plants. They also tested Bull's Eye, which is susceptible to mildew, where Eyes for You is very resistant to mildew. Bull's Eye is no where near as healthy nor "seductive" as Eyes, but it produced the required percentage of the required quality of plant for successful production.

We talk about "success rates" for cuttings. Some fail, even with our best attentions. Others succeed in spite of our worst inattention. Some varieties root right down the line, as Ralph Moore reported from the initial cuttings he propagated from Out of the Night from the terribly yellowed, stressed original seedling. Sequoia never promoted Softee because to Mr. Moore, it was too hard to root. Others, no matter what you do to or for them, obstinately refuse to strike, period. Some types are notoriously obstinate to propagate. Many Teas and Chinas are of this type. Quite often, just getting the bloody thing to root, period, is a miracle. To receive a beautiful, well rooted plant of many of them is a miracle. Most, unless they've been potted for several seasons, are going to be wimpy, scrawny plants and are going to require "nursing" in good soil, potted where they will have warm roots and protected against the extremes of your climate.

Begin propagating your own. You will quickly see how cuttings which appear to be identical, aren't. Some are going to explode into growth and make gorgeous plants pretty quickly. Others will out right fail, or root, but fail to thrive, for whatever reason. MANY, if treated properly, will produce plants worth growing. Very often, you aren't ever going to know precisely why they did, or didn't perform as expected. Kim

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RE: 1rst order from Burlington! (Follow-Up #8)

posted by: Strawberryhill on 11.30.2012 at 12:39 pm in Roses Forum

Hi Bluegirl: I promoted Annie Laurie and mini Norwich Sweetheart since they can be planted by baby squirrels burying their nuts for the winter ... and you won't need a team of gorillas chopping holes for you like planting grafted big fat Dr. Huey.

I got 14 bands from Burlington last year, these are the right and wrongs I did - but repent for my sins and did not whine nor whimper to Burling:

Right: I put them in pots, with Moisure-control-potting soil, topdressed with alfalfa meal for growth hormone.

Right: I bought cheapo black plastic pots, 2-gallons each for $3, with indentation on the bottom for better drainage. Roots grow twice faster in those pots than the pretty styprofoam ones.

Wrong: I put them in full-sun, their roots could not grow, being dried out in 90 to 100 degrees summer.

Wrong: My styrofoam pots were sitting on a cement patio, their flat bottoms got plugged up. In our non-stop all day rain, they became bathtubs. I should had elevated the bottoms with bricks, so they drain better.

Right: I received wimpy Mirandy hybrid tea, 3 inches tall, with 3 utterly yellow leaves. I tried alfalfa meal, acid nitrogen fertilizer, nothing work. Finally I tried blood meal with iron, it became dark green immediately and flowered within a month.

Right: I did extensive research to see if I need to waste $10 on a bag of superphosphate for root growth. Professor Linda Chalker-Scott debunked that myth of phosphorus, since it's only deficient in sandy soil. Check out the link below. She confirmed my suspicion that iron and nitrogen stimulate phosphorus uptake by plants, better than bonemeal and phosphorus supplement. I checked the ingredients of a commercial mix to stimulate root growth, used in transplant: it has vitamin B1 (thiamine), Vitamin C (ascorbic acid), plus Iron, with pH acidic at 6 to 6.4. Willow water has salicylic acid, and plants can't root well with alkaline tap water, but best with rain water at pH of 5 to 6.

Annie tripled in size when I gave it ACID fertilizer NPK of 10-5-4 with tripled iron, and I fixed my alkaline tap water with used lemons (vitamin C is good for root growth). Austin Elantyne with Rugosa heritage HATES everything I gave: alfalfa meal, acid fertilizer NPK 10-5-6, but grew well with blood meal, NPK 12-0-0, with iron. Professor Linda Chalker-Scott is right that nitrogen and iron helps uptake of phosphorus, essential for root growth

Right: My husband noticed that OGRs Paul Neyron and Comte de Chambord were not growing in full-sun, I came to my sense and moved Annie' and Paul Neyron' pots to partial shade. They shot up immediately with our constant fall rain. After 8 months, Comte de Chambord in full sun has tiny root, versus 2-gallon rootball of Annie, which I transferred from pot to ground in November before the snow came.

Right: I did not expect own-roots to perform like Dr. Huey, who can sit in warehouse dry as bare-root for months. I realize that I can't treat young rootings the same way as Dr. Huey, his root can go through hard-rock clay better than my shovel and a rototiller machine. Once I start rooting roses from cuttings, I realize how difficult it is for tiny own-roots to survive without constant moisture. Own-roots are tiny rootings, best grown in 4 hours of morning sun - rather than full-blast sun and into the dry soil, which guarantee their demise.

Here is a link that might be useful: Myth on phosphorus for rooth growth

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RE: So confused re. rootstocks (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: roseseek on 12.11.2012 at 08:12 pm in Roses Forum

Both multiflora and Huey have been used widely as stocks in Texas rose production, so those should be OK for you. Fortuniana may also work. One of the benefits of using a tried and true plant for root stock is it has already been tried with a variety of different scions (the bud inserted into the stock) and is more likely to be compatible with more varieties of roses. You MAY run into some incompatibilities using more modern roses, or not.

Another benefit of using tried and true stocks is they are known to accept scions easily. It might be possible some garden roses may not.

You also need to take how easily the bark lifts from the cambium, making it easier to accomplish budding, into account. Known stocks tend to be some of the easiest. But, give them a try. Kim

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