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RE: Hyb.perps. and floribundas for z10? (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: malcolm_manners on 07.01.2009 at 11:47 pm in Antique Roses Forum

Floribundas are fine. Some are more disease-susceptible than others, but they should all grow and flower well.

Hybrid Perpetuals -- another matter altogether. They'll all require regular spraying for blackspot. I've never found a resistant one. And some of them will be only once-blooming, even though they repeat elsewhere. For good repeaters in Florida summer heat, I'd recommend 'Paul Neyron', 'Baronne Prevost' 'Frau Karl Druschki' (give her space -- she's huge) and 'Reine des Violettes', which may not repeat the first year, but with maturity, should repeat. We had a handful of flowers on ours today, I noticed. Oh, 'Marchesa Boccella', a.k.a. 'Jacques Cartier', and variously classified as a HP or a Portland, is a good repeater in the heat as well. Again, he'll need spraying for blackspot.


clipped on: 07.02.2009 at 07:12 pm    last updated on: 07.02.2009 at 07:12 pm

RE: Which roses can take full unrelenting sun? (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: texaslynn on 05.18.2009 at 08:44 am in Roses Forum

I'm not sure what varieties of roses or what colors you are prefering but here's what does well for my southern exposure planted roses:

Caldwell Pink (lavendery found rose)
Mrs. B.R. Cant (rosey tea)
Carefree Beauty (bright pink shrub rose)
Martha Gonzales (red china)
Red Cascade (weeping miniature or climber)
Hansa (purple rugosa)

These have been growing in total full sun, cooking in the heat and humidity here, for several years and doing well. They are also the roses that I don't have to spray!



clipped on: 05.21.2009 at 07:30 am    last updated on: 05.21.2009 at 07:30 am

RE: serious concerns about Heirloom Roses.... (Follow-Up #24)

posted by: kstrong on 05.10.2009 at 02:42 am in Roses Forum

**I can only say -- I WISH Sequoia was still in business.
The ranks of remaining quality vendors grow smaller every year.
Though we knew that loss was coming, it still hurts. Nothing has replaced it.
Nothing, really, could replace such a unique entity. **

Jeri -- actually there is a new mail order nursery in Visalia that is being opened by one of the Sequoia folk -- Burling Leong. I got roses from her last month -- same size and same price as Sequoia (very reasonable). She has no website yet, but her rose list can be obtained via email.
BurlingL AT aol DOT com is the email address.

I got
1 Lavender Spoon (budded) in 5 inch pot @ $6.95 (Special Price)
1 Kim Rupert in 5 inch band @ $6.95
1 Michele Cholet in 3 inch pot @ $5.95
1 Pookah in 3 inch pot @ $5.95
1 Cinnamon Stick in 5 inch band @ $6.95
1 Secret Recipe in 3 inch pot @ $5.95
1 Purple Buttons in 5 inch band @ $6.95
1 Hoot Owl in 3 inch pot @ $5.95
1 Bayes Blueberry in 5 inch band @ $6.95 (Special Price)
1 Green Ice in 3 inch pot @ $5.95
1 George Pernet in 5 inch band @ $6.95 (Special Price)
1 Flower Power in 5 inch band @ $6.95 (Special Price)
1 Smoke Signals in 5 inch band @ $6.95

and shipping for all of that was only $11.50.

Very reasonable -- both as to the size and quality of the plants and the prices, as you can see. All are doing well, but so far my favorite is Pookah. It has adorable little single hot pink blooms with white eyes that come in sprays.



clipped on: 05.11.2009 at 02:47 pm    last updated on: 05.11.2009 at 02:48 pm

RE: Jean's List (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: duchesse_nalabama on 05.01.2009 at 10:50 am in Antique Roses Forum

• The Fairy
• Cl. Clotilde Soupert
• Cl. Cecile Brunner
• Clotilde Soupert
• La Marne
• Gourmet Popcorn
• Mrs. R.M. Finch
• Perle d’Or
• Phyllis Bide

Hybrid Musks:
• Excellenz von Schubert
• Darlow's Enigma
• Gardindirektor Otto von Linne

• Carefree Delight
• Earth Song
• Pearl Meidiland
• Carefree Sunshine
• Belinda’s Dream
• Carefree beauty a/k/a/ Katy Road Pink
• Winter Sunset
• Prairie Sunrise
• Knock Out

• Alberic Barbier
• Francois Juranville
• Aviateur Bleuriot
• Alexander Girault
• Ayrshire Queen
• Paul Transon
• Emily Gray
• Francois Guillot

• Pink Pet/Caldwell Pink
• Arethusa
• Le Vesuve
• Comtesse du Cayla
• Bermuda’s Kathleen
• Ducher
• Napoleon
• Cramoisi Superieur
• Little White Pet

• Crepuscule
• Blush Noisette
• Souv de Mme. L’Advocat
• Narrow Water
• Nastarana
• Jaune Desprez
• Reve d’Or
• Duchesse d’Auerstadt
• Alister Stella Gray
• Lamarque
• Champney’s Pink Cluster
• William Allen Richardson
• Secret Garden Musk

• Lady Hillingdon
• Maman Cochet
• Duchesse de Brabant
• Baronne Henriette de Snoy
• Georgetown Lemon White Tea
• William R. Smith
• Rosette Delizy
• Comtesse Festestics
• Souv. de Pierre Notting
• Rock Hill Peach Tea
• La Sylphide
• Le Pactole
• Jean Bach Sisley
• Clementina Carbonieri
• Etoile de Lyon
• Mme. Maurin
• Alliance Franco-Russe
• Mrs. Dudley Cross
• Monsieur Tillier
• Mme. Joseph Schwartz
• Georgetown Tea
• Hermosa
• Isabella Sprunt
• Mrs. B.R. Cant
• Lorraine Lee
• Enchantresse
• J.E. Murphy's Pink Tea
• Angel Camp Tea
• Puerto Rico
• Safrano
• Mme. Antoine Rebe
• Mme. Berkeley
• Marie van Houtte
• Triomphe de Luxembourg
• Rhodologue Jules Graveraux
• Smith’s Parish
• Cels Multiflora
• Hume’s Blush
• Souv. d’un Ami
• Miss Caroline
• Thomasville Old Gold
• Duke of York
• Niles Cochet
• Mme. Antoine Marie
• Mme. Lombard
• Rubens
• Irene Bonnet
• Mme. Camille
• Paul Nabonnand
• Mme. de la Sombreuil
• Isabelle Nabonnand
• Devoniensis

Hybrid Teas:
• Eva de Grossouvre
• Radiance
• Red Radiance
• Careless Love
• Maman Lyly
• Lady Ursula

• Awakening
• Clair Matin
• Cl. Lady Waterlow
• Westerland
• Autumn Sunset
• New Dawn

• Strawberry Ice a/k/a Bordure Rose

• Souv. de la Malmaison
• Mystic Beauty
• Kronprincessin Viktoria
• Souv. de St. Anne a/k/a Miss Abbot


clipped on: 05.04.2009 at 01:44 pm    last updated on: 05.04.2009 at 01:44 pm

RE: how do you post pictures? (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: curlydoc on 04.29.2009 at 09:55 am in Roses Forum

It's very easy once you get the hang of it. You can't copy pictures directly to the site. You have to use an imaging service like Photobucket.

First, go to and set up a users account there. Once you have an account, go to the "Upload Images and Video" box and "Choose Files", which images to upload to Photobucket from "my computer". Specify how much to reduce the size of your images. Usually 640 x 480 is a good size, not too large. "Add Title" and "Return To Album". Voila! You now have your pictures on Photobucket.

To transfer your pictures to the Rose Forum site, place your cursor over your picture on the Photobucket site. You will see four code choices below the picture. Go down to the "HTML Code" and press your left mouse button over the box next to HTML code, which highlights the words in the box. Right click the highlighted box, and press "Copy"

Then, go to the Rose Forum Message box and place the cursor where you want your picture to be. Right click and press "Paste". This pastes the words from the HTML code box into the Message box of the Rose Forum. Your picture does not appear at this step, only words.

Then press "Preview Message" below the Message box. You will now see your picture in the Message box. If you are happy with the picture and your typed message, press "Submit Message".

Your pictures now will appear on the Rose Forum site.

Hope this helps.

Crimson Glory 11-1-08


clipped on: 04.29.2009 at 11:23 am    last updated on: 04.29.2009 at 11:23 am

Four types of pegging

posted by: michaelg on 04.28.2009 at 09:48 am in Antique Roses Forum

I noticed on Paul Z's thread that people are talking about several different things under the one term. Here's my attempt to clarify, just a start. Please add corrections or comments. I'm certainly no expert at managing shrubs.

When pegging, remove the growth tip, if any, unless you are also tip-layering.

---Pegged (fountain)---

For adding more width and bloom to roses that naturally grow in a tall vase shape; also for roses that don't branch well when given normal shrub pruning. Bend the canes over in a low or medium arch and anchor the tips firmly near the ground. May be combined with tip-layering if you want more plants. In spring, remove strong laterals that have developed near the top of the arches, as these spoil the lines of the plant.

---Pegged (horizontal)---

For maximum ground coverage and minimum height; canes must be somewhat flexible. Stretch the cane out and fasten it to a line of pegs at a height of maybe 6". It should produce a thicket of strong vertical laterals that carry the flowers.

---Self-pegged (dome-shaped)---

Bend long whippy shoots back over the top of the plant and down; fasten to canes on the other side of the plant. This produces an inelegant cane structure which should, however, be covered by a mass of leaves and flowers on vertical laterals/sublaterals. Do the self-pegging in spring before leafing-out, or leaves will be upside down.

Cane segments bent downward may not produce breaks or blooms, but they contribute rigidity and continue to supply energy to the plant. Eventually they may die back harmlessly. Same is true of. . .

---Self-pegged (crown-shaped)---

Bend long whippy shoots out, down, and back, fastening the cane's tip to its own base. This can be a good way to start a floppy rose on the path to uprightness. It conserves plant energy as opposed to cutting the flexible canes back. Once canes have thickened up, they can be cut back to the top of the arch in spring.


clipped on: 04.28.2009 at 07:12 pm    last updated on: 04.28.2009 at 07:12 pm

RE: Which Floribunda for high temps. and high humidity? (Follow-Up #13)

posted by: gnabonnand on 04.04.2009 at 05:55 pm in Roses Forum

If you must have a floribunda, you probably need these two:

'Valentine' - may be able to find it locally at Northaven in Dallas, but I'm not sure. Can always order it from The Antique Rose Emporium.

'Pink Gruss an Aachen' - much harder to fine, but performs very well for me and is my personal favorite. No Texas suppliers carry it. Must be ordered from Roses Unlimited (South Carolina) or Vintage (California) & very few other places. Looks very "old" rose. Nice scent to my nose.

'Nearly Wild' - I don't grow this one, but I know it can sometimes be found locally and it always looks great in my neighbor's garden. Some people will tell you it is "black-spot prone", but I can tell you in my neighbor's front yard it is very, very healthy. He does not spray.

And, beyond floribunda's, below are some "floribunda-sized" roses that are much better adapted to our extreme weather in the Dallas area & our soil. In the long run, I believe you will be happier with these roses:

'Souvenir de la Malmaison' - a superior rose for NorthCentral Texas. Far, far better performer here than any floribunda ever dreamed about. Perfection of bloom, nearly each one a masterpiece. Other parts of the country can not grow this rose like we can, you are giving up part of the benefits of living in Texas if you don't plant this rose in your garden.

'Souvenir de St Annes' - semi-double sport of the above. A near perfect rose for here, if you are okay with fewer petals on a rose. Not many petals, but they are very well placed and large. Insanely strong scent to my nose (a very good thing).

'Marie Daly' - bloom factory, with great fragrance. Will scent your whole yard when mature.

'Perle de Or' - another superior rose for here.

'Caldwell Pink' - tough as a tank, but with nice blooms.



clipped on: 04.04.2009 at 06:25 pm    last updated on: 04.04.2009 at 06:25 pm

RE: Which Floribunda for high temps. and high humidity? (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: dallasguy on 04.02.2009 at 11:14 pm in Roses Forum

I am also in the Dallas area. Like you, I prefer roses that bloom often or "constantly". I probably have around 80 roses now, mostly chinas, teas, floribundas and a few Hybrid Teas. Size, space and spraying for blaok spot determine what you probably will want to plant, but below is a list of my favorite roses that are pretty much always in bloom. BTW, you can buy most of them at North Haven Gardens, they carry a lot of the ARE roses, as that is one of their vendors.

Archduke Charles - almost always in bloom and changes color as the bloom ages
Ducher- a great white that blooms from march-dec it gets about 4x5
M Tiller- blooms from march-dec it gets HUGE, it grew to 5x8 in one season
Honey Perfume- an apricot/yellow floribunda, very fragrant
Cramiosi Superior- this is a great one, blooms in clusters almost constantly, it is still small for me but I have been told it gets big
Pure Perfume- a great white floribunda that smells like grapefruit, it has very quick rebloom
Black Cherry- a nice red floribunda very quick rebloom
Perle d'or- I grow this one in a pot, almost always in bloom, loves the heat and has a honey fragrance
Carefree Beauty- a shrub rose, pink always in bloom
Old Blush- a pink china that is always in bloom
Julia Child- yellow floribunda, a nice rose, quick repeat
Hermosa- a china, pink, blooms from march-dec
Duchess de Brabant- a great rose, smells like raspberries, nodding blooms. I planted this last year and it is 4x6. I love the fragrance, just wish I put it closer to the front.
Belinda's Dream- a nice pink earthkind rose with hybrid tea shaped blooms, it loves our heat in the summer and almost always has blooms.
Marie Pavie- a nice polyantha, stays small great fragrance
Valentine- a small floribunda, I bought this rose blooming and it is still covered with buds, it was recommened as a continuos bloomer
Eutin- a small red floribunda, again, recommended as a constant bloomer, like valentine it hasn't stopped blooming since I bought it.

I am sure I am forgetting a few, these are the ones that stick out in my mind and roses that I know you will be able to get locally. I hope this helps you get started.


clipped on: 04.04.2009 at 06:23 pm    last updated on: 04.04.2009 at 06:23 pm

RE: Teas with large flowers and for cutting? (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: jerijen on 03.30.2009 at 03:50 pm in Antique Roses Forum

Well, you know bloom size for Tea Roses isn't for the most part going to be huge.
Some are bigger than others, of course, but they're not a match for really big HTs.
Vase life is a different issue, and many of the Teas have a very good vase life, particularly if picked on the early side.

Here's a bouquet of Teas:

March 12 Bouquet

Clockwise, from top: 'Mme. Antoine Rebe' Quite a large single, with a surprisingly good vase life); Mrs. B.R. Cant (picked tight), Mme. Berkeley, Mme. Berkeley, Mrs. B.R. Cant, Catherine Mermet.

Catherine Mermet and her darker sport, 'Bridesmaid,' produce large blooms, for Teas, and have a good vase life.
Mme. Berkeley makes a smaller bloom, on a big, vigorous plant, and blooms in huge volume. Great vase life.
Mrs. B.R. Cant opens quite large, but the petals are softer, and I don't find the good vase life.

Still, with Teas, if the blooms only last a couple of days in a vase, you can be sure of finding more to pick when you want them.



clipped on: 03.30.2009 at 07:34 pm    last updated on: 03.30.2009 at 07:34 pm

RE: old or english roses in Z10 SWFL (Follow-Up #8)

posted by: flowerlady6 on 03.29.2009 at 03:59 pm in Florida Gardening Forum

Hello NR ~ I love the old garden roses.

Here are the roses that I have.

Ducher - China - 1869
Duchesse de Brabant - Tea - 1857
Caldwell's Pink or Pink Pet - China - 1928
Cocktail - Floribunda - 1957
Louis Phillipe - China - 1834
Kathleen - Hybrid musk - 1925
Bon Silene - Tea - 1834
Maggie - Bourbon - 1900
La Marne - Polyantha - 1915
Homere - Tea - 1858
Borderer - Polyantha - 1918
Mm. Laurette Messimy - China - 1897
Mutabilis - China - 1894
Old Blush - China - 1793
Penelope - Penelope - Hybrid musk - 1924
Phyllis Bide - Polyantha climber - 1923
Prosperity - Hybrid musk- 1919
Ballerina - Hybrid musk - 1937
Dainty Bess - Hybrid Tea - 1925
Maman Cochet - Tea - 1896
Souvenir de la Malmaison - Bourbon - 1843

I may have a few more, but they are more modern roses. These I have now are all own root. I have read that the old garden roses are more hardy. I love them. Some of the above are not really ogr's, but have done well for me. I have had others and lost them, boo hoo.

Happy Rose growing, and remember one is not enough, and before long you will be an addict. :-)



clipped on: 03.29.2009 at 09:09 pm    last updated on: 03.29.2009 at 09:10 pm

RE: The Low-Down on Black Spot (Follow-Up #33)

posted by: loratw619 on 03.29.2009 at 12:08 am in Antique Roses Forum

Let me start by saying I am a relative newbie to hybrid tea roses, and I don't claim to be an expert in any way. But I live in a very rural area with a lot of "old timers" who live by the Farmer's Almanac are happy to share their tips and tricks. And more often than not, they seem to work.

I'm in the Ohio River Valley, and black spot can be a real problem here. It made my HTs almost unbearable to look at. They kept growing and even flowering, but lost many if not most of their leaves...and it spread from one bush to another almost like a plague. I was ready to give up.

But a very old man at our local feed store gave me these instructions, and it helped immensly. He told me to throw corn meal around all the bushes as far as the leaves can drop, and then spray them heavily with a milk and baking soda mixture....about half water, half milk and 1/3 of a box of soda in a gallon jug.

I did the cornmeal, sprayed every other day or so with the milk/baking soda...especially after rain, and picked off and discarded any fallen or infected leaves.

Might sound crazy, but it made a big difference. It didn't totally eliminate the problem, but it definately made a very noticable improvement fairly quickly. Can't say that it would have made a lasting improvement though because a hellacious ice storm pretty much devastaed the whole garden this past winter.

Either way, it's cheap, it's easy and organic, and it seemed to work really well during the growing season. So just take it for what it's worth and good luck with it all. I plan to do the same thing this year when I replant what Old Man Winter destroyed. :)


clipped on: 03.29.2009 at 09:02 pm    last updated on: 03.29.2009 at 09:02 pm

Container Soils - Water Movement & Retention V

posted by: tapla on 04.09.2008 at 08:08 pm in Container Gardening Forum

A thread similar to this has been posted four other times. Each of the other postings have reached the maximum allowable - 150 replies. I would like to preface this post by saying that over the last few years, the thread & subject has garnered a fair amount of attention, evidenced by the many, many e-mails I find in my in-box, and has been a wonderful catalyst in the forging of new friendships and in increasing my list of acquaintances with similar growing interests. I welcome these individual exchanges, which alone are enough to make me hope the subject continues to pique interest and curiosity. Not an afterthought - I should add that there is equal satisfaction in the knowledge that some of the information provided in good-spirited exchange might be making a significant difference in some growers' success or satisfaction.
I'll provide links to the previous three threads at the end of what I have written. Thank you for looking into this subject - I hope that any/all who read it take something interesting and helpful from it. I know it's long, but I hope you find it worth the read.


Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention

A Discussion About Soils

As container gardeners, our first priority should be to insure the soils we use are adequately aerated for the life of the planting, or in the case of perennial material (trees, shrubs, garden perennials), from repot to repot. Soil aeration/drainage is the most important consideration in any container planting. Soil is the foundation that all container plantings are built on, and aeration is the cornerstone of that foundation. Since aeration and drainage are inversely linked to soil particle size, it makes good sense to try to find and use soils or primary components with particles larger than peat. That components retain their structure for extended periods is also extremely important. Pine and some other types of conifer bark fit the bill nicely and I’ll talk more about them later.

The following also hits pretty hard against the futility of using a drainage layer in an attempt to improve drainage. It just doesn't work. All it does is reduce the amount soil available for root colonization. A wick will remove water from the saturated layer of soil at the container bottom. It works in reverse of the self-watering pots widely being discussed on this forum now.

Since there are many questions about soils appropriate for use in containers, I'll post basic mix recipes later, in case any would like to try the soil. It will follow the Water Movement info.

Consider this if you will:

Soil need fill only a few needs in plant culture. Anchorage - A place for roots to extend, securing the plant and preventing it from toppling. Nutrient Sink - It must retain sufficient nutrients in available form to sustain plant systems. Gas Exchange - It must be sufficiently porous to allow air to the root system and by-product gasses to escape. And finally, Water - It must retain water enough in liquid and/or vapor form to sustain plants between waterings. Most plants could be grown without soil as long as we can provide air, nutrients, and water, (witness hydroponics). Here, I will concentrate primarily on the movement of water in soil(s).

There are two forces that cause water to move through soil - one is gravity, the other capillary action. Gravity needs little explanation, but for this writing I would like to note: Gravitational flow potential (GFP) is greater for water at the top of the container than it is for water at the bottom. I'll return to that later. Capillarity is a function of the natural forces of adhesion and cohesion. Adhesion is water's tendency to stick to solid objects like soil particles and the sides of the pot. Cohesion is the tendency for water to stick to itself. Cohesion is why we often find water in droplet form - because cohesion is at times stronger than adhesion, water’s bond to itself can be stronger than the bond to the object it might be in contact with; in this condition it forms a drop. Capillary action is in evidence when we dip a paper towel in water. The water will soak into the towel and rise several inches above the surface of the water. It will not drain back into the source. It will stop rising when the GFP equals the capillary attraction of the fibers in the paper.

There will be a naturally occurring "perched water table" (PWT) in containers when soil particulate size is under about .125 (1/8) inch.. This is water that occupies a layer of soil that is always saturated & will not drain from the portion of the pot it occupies. It can evaporate or be used by the plant, but physical forces will not allow it to drain. It is there because the capillary pull of the soil at some point will surpass the GFP; therefore, the water does not drain, it is "perched". The smaller the size of the particles in a soil, the greater the height of the PWT.

If we fill five cylinders of varying heights and diameters with the same soil mix and provide each cylinder with a drainage hole, the PWT will be exactly the same height in each container. This saturated area of the pot is where roots seldom penetrate & where root problems frequently begin due to a lack of aeration. Water and nutrient uptake are also compromised by lack of air in the root zone. Keeping in mind the fact that the PWT height is soil dependent and has nothing to do with height or shape of the container, we can draw the conclusion that: Tall growing containers will always have a higher percentage of unsaturated soil than squat containers when using the same soil mix. The reason: The level of the PWT will be the same in each container, with the taller container providing more usable, air holding soil above the PWT. Physiology dictates that plants must have oxygen at the root zone in order to maintain normal root function.

A given volume of large soil particles has less overall surface area when compared to the same volume of small particles and therefore less overall adhesive attraction to water. So, in soils with large particles, GFP more readily overcomes capillary attraction. They drain better. We all know this, but the reason, often unclear, is that the height of the PWT is lower in coarse soils than in fine soils. The key to good drainage is size and uniformity of soil particles. Mixing large particles with small is often very ineffective because the smaller particles fit between the large, increasing surface area which increases the capillary attraction and thus the water holding potential.

When we add a coarse drainage layer under our soil, it does not improve drainage. It does though, conserve on the volume of soil required to fill a pot and it makes the pot lighter. When we employ this exercise in an attempt to improve drainage, what we are actually doing is moving the level of the PWT higher in the pot. This simply reduces the volume of soil available for roots to colonize. Containers with uniform soil particle size from top of container to bottom will yield better and more uniform drainage and have a lower PWT than containers with drainage layers. The coarser the drainage layer, the more detrimental to drainage it is because water is more (for lack of a better scientific word) reluctant to make the downward transition because the capillary pull of the soil above the drainage layer is stronger than the GFP. The reason for this is there is far more surface area for water to be attracted to in the soil above the drainage layer than there is in the drainage layer, so the water "perches".

I know this goes against what most have thought to be true, but the principle is scientifically sound, and experiments have shown it as so. Many nurserymen are now employing the pot-in-pot or the pot-in-trench method of growing to capitalize on the science.

If you discover you need to increase drainage, you can simply insert an absorbent wick into a drainage hole & allow it to extend from the saturated soil to a few inches below the bottom of the pot, or allow it to contact soil below the container where it can be absorbed. This will successfully eliminate the PWT & give your plants much more soil to grow in as well as allow more, much needed air to the roots.

Uniform size particles of fir, hemlock or pine bark are excellent as the primary component of your soils. The lignin contained in bark keeps it rigid and the rigidity provides air-holding pockets in the root zone far longer than peat or compost mixes that too quickly break down to a soup-like consistency. Conifer bark also contains suberin, a lipid sometimes referred to as nature’s preservative. Suberin is what slows the decomposition of bark-based soils. It contains highly varied hydrocarbon chains and the microorganisms that turn peat to soup have great difficulty cleaving these chains.

In simple terms: Plants that expire because of drainage problems either die of thirst because the roots have rotted and can no longer take up water, or they starve/"suffocate" because there is insufficient air at the root zone to insure normal water/nutrient uptake and root function.

To confirm the existence of the PWT and the effectiveness of using a wick to remove it, try this experiment: Fill a soft drink cup nearly full of garden soil. Add enough water to fill to the top, being sure all soil is saturated. Punch a drain hole in the bottom of the cup & allow to drain. When the drainage stops, insert a wick into the drain hole . Take note of how much additional water drains. Even touching the soil with a toothpick through the drain hole will cause substantial additional water to drain. This is water that occupied the PWT before being drained by the wick. A greatly simplified explanation of what occurs is: The wick "fools" the water into thinking the pot is deeper, so water begins to move downward seeking the "new" bottom of the pot, pulling the rest of the water in the PWT along with it. If there is interest, there are other simple and interesting experiments you can perform to confirm the existence of a PWT in container soils. I can expand later.

I remain cognizant of these physical principles whenever I build a soil. I haven’t used a commercially prepared soil in many years, preferring to build a soil or amend one of my 2 basic mixes to suits individual plantings. I use many amendments when building my soils, but the basic building process starts with conifer bark and perlite. Sphagnum peat usually plays a minor, or at least a secondary role in my container soils because it breaks down too quickly and when it does, it impedes drainage and reduces aeration.

Note that there is no sand or compost in the soils I use. Sand, though it can improve drainage in some cases, reduces aeration by filling valuable macro-pores in soils. Unless sand particle size is fairly uniform and/or larger than about ½ BB size I leave it out of soils. Compost is too unstable for me to consider using in soils. The small amount of micronutrients it supplies can easily be delivered by one or more of a number of chemical or organic sources.

My Basic Soil

I'll give two recipes. I usually make big batches. I also frequently add agricultural sulfur to some soils for acid-lovers or to soils I use dolomitic lime in.

5 parts pine bark fines
1 part sphagnum peat (not reed or sedge peat please)
1-2 parts perlite
garden lime (or gypsum in some cases)
controlled release fertilizer (if preferred)
micronutrient powder, other continued source of micronutrients, or fertilizer with all minors

Big batch:

2-3 cu ft pine bark fines
5 gallons peat
5 gallons perlite
2 cups dolomitic (garden) lime (or gypsum in some cases)
2 cups CRF (if preferred)
1/2 cup micronutrient powder (or other source of the minors)

Small batch:

3 gallons pine bark
1/2 gallon peat
1/2 gallon perlite
4 tbsp lime (or gypsum in some cases)
1/4 cup CRF
micro-nutrient powder (or other source of the minors)

I have seen advice that some highly organic (practically speaking - almost all are highly organic) container soils are productive for up to 5 years or more. I disagree and will explain why if there is interest. Even if you were to substitute fir bark for pine bark in this recipe (and this recipe will long outlast any peat based soil) you should only expect a maximum of two to three years life before a repot is in order. Usually perennials, including trees (they're perennials too, you know) ;o) should be repotted more frequently to insure vigor closer to their genetic potential. If a soil is desired that will retain structure for long periods, we need to look more to inorganic components. Some examples are crushed granite, pea stone, coarse sand (see above - usually no smaller than ½ BB size in containers, please), Haydite, lava rock (pumice), Turface or Schultz soil conditioner, and others.

Thank you for your interest.

Al Fassezke

If there is interest, please find the previous postings here:

Posting I

Posting II

Posting III

Posting IV


clipped on: 03.23.2009 at 08:49 pm    last updated on: 03.23.2009 at 08:49 pm

RE: Best yellow OGR? (Follow-Up #17)

posted by: tenor_peggy on 03.20.2009 at 08:47 am in Antique Roses Forum

I have an old tea that is yellow and seems to be spot free in my no spray garden (I just wish it had more petals) = Mrs. Pierre S. du Pont. Etoile de Lyon is on my want list. I also have Lady Hillingdon but she is more apricot in cooler weather than yellow. In the heat of summer it is almost white.


clipped on: 03.22.2009 at 09:36 pm    last updated on: 03.22.2009 at 09:37 pm

RE: Best yellow OGR? (Follow-Up #9)

posted by: barbarag_happy on 03.18.2009 at 09:31 pm in Antique Roses Forum

Don't kinow if all these technically qualify, but my three favorite antique roses are all monsters-- Yellow Lady Banks, Mermaid, and Fortune's Double Yellow. Another fave is Crepuscule, which is more richly colored than other noisettes but is definitely a blend of colors. I've seen Harison's Yellow in a couple collections well north of 'bama! Hope someone chimes in about Canary Bird, r. hugonis, Cantagibiensis-- which I've never grown..or SEEN even!


clipped on: 03.22.2009 at 09:35 pm    last updated on: 03.22.2009 at 09:35 pm

RE: Anyone growing teas in S. Florida? (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: pandy on 03.18.2009 at 10:28 pm in Antique Roses Forum

Hi Avalon,

I have Baronne Henriette de Snoy, Gilbert Nabonnand, Lady Hillingdon, Mrs Dudley Cross, Mme Charles, William R Smith, Clementina Carbonieri, Etoile de Lyon, Miss Atwood, Francis Dubreuil etc etc..They are great down here. Once they get going they bloom constantly.



clipped on: 03.19.2009 at 11:16 am    last updated on: 03.19.2009 at 07:17 pm

RE: Anyone growing teas in S. Florida? (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: tenor_peggy on 03.19.2009 at 02:35 am in Antique Roses Forum

I have Duchesse du Brabant, Clementina Carboneiri and Lady Hillingdon in my small rose garden. LH sometimes has a few spotted leaves but nothing too serious and I manually remove these (I do not spray). CC grows kinda funny. It's canes grow almost horizontally but I love her flowers and fragrance.


clipped on: 03.19.2009 at 07:16 pm    last updated on: 03.19.2009 at 07:16 pm

RE: Damask roses for Florida (Follow-Up #15)

posted by: malcolm_manners on 03.13.2009 at 09:54 pm in Antique Roses Forum

I would not recommend banksias in S. Fla. They don't flower well for us, even once. We get a small smattering of blooms in the spring, but not worth growing and waiting a year for.

Have you tried the true musks? R. moschata. Excellent, nearly constant rebloom and strongly fragrant. The single is my favorite.


clipped on: 03.18.2009 at 07:47 pm    last updated on: 03.18.2009 at 07:47 pm

RE: Gallicas for south Florida? (Follow-Up #13)

posted by: malcolm_manners on 03.12.2009 at 09:07 am in Antique Roses Forum

This thread and the one on Damasks have me thinking about just what old European roses (or at least "northern" roses) do well here in Lakeland. We've grown a lot of them. I'd recommend these:

Damasks -- 'Autumn Damask' only

Moss -- 'Salet' only

Hybrid Perpetual -- 'Paul Neyron' (excellent if pruned heavily and frequently), 'Georg Arends', 'Reine des Violettes' (needs to be big, but then it repeats), 'Frau Karl Druschki' (genetically a HT, of course. Let it get big). Granny Grimmetts is also fairly good about reblooming, and has that purpley red color that is so rare in the warm-climate roses.

Alba -- Most have been complete failures, but 'Felicite Parmentier' and 'Alba Semiplena' do give a decent spring-only flowering, if you simply must have an Alba here.

Gallica -- no luck at all with any of them, nor with any of the Gallica-like HCh, although we've not tried them all.

Bourbon -- 'Souv. de la Malmaison' and its sports are great, including 'Leveson Gower' which is apparently not a sport. 'Maggie' is excellent. 'Gruss an Teplitz' is acceptable. 'Mme. Isaac Perreire' and sports and relatives have NOT performed well for us -- seldom rebloom, and horrendous for both black spot and mildew, even with spraying. Boule de Neige is good, if kept sprayed for black spot. Lots of rebloom.

Portlands -- The Portland Rose itself has not done well, seldom reblooming at all. But 'Comte de Chambord' (or at least the rose sold in the US under that name) is good, as is 'Marchesa Boccella' (a.k.a. Jacques Cartier) -- HP or P. We've tried a few others, and the class seems to be good about reblooming here, but they are all disease susceptible.

This class is surprising. One would not expect them to do well for us, preferring the coasts of Maine or Oregon. But some of them are excellent, if grafted to 'Fortuniana' roots. R. rugosa Rubra is great -- compact, always in blooms, good hips. 'Mary Manners' and her sport parent 'Sarah Van Fleet' are good. 'Fru Dagmar Hastrup' grows well; doesn't repeat as often as I'd like, but it does repeat. Rugosa Alba is good. 'Hansa' is excellent. The Grootendorst series are all fine, although they are not disease-free, and like all rugosas, they resent spraying, so you just have to live with the leaf imperfections. But they do repeat well.

Stanwell Perpetual is another surprising one, in that it is predominantly R. spinosissima, so should be longing for the heaths of Scotland, but it grows and flowers very well for us. it's in bloom today, not having stopped in over a year (since it's last hard pruning). We just lightly pruned it this year.

I think all of these are best grown on 'Fortuniana' roots in our climate, and we always do graft them.


clipped on: 03.18.2009 at 07:42 pm    last updated on: 03.18.2009 at 07:42 pm

RE: Gallicas for south Florida? (Follow-Up #6)

posted by: bellegallica on 03.11.2009 at 04:09 am in Antique Roses Forum

Despite my choice of screenname I'm in a steamy climate as well, so I know your pain.

I'd like to suggest a couple more alternatives for you. Take a look at the Bourbon 'Madame Isaac Perierre' and the China/Bourbon 'Eugene de Beauharnais.' (EdB is usually sold as a China, but at least one nursery sells it as the Bourbon 'Le Grand Capitaine.') Either of those may be a good substitute for 'Charles de Mills.'

Also, explore the Bourbon and Hybrid Perpetual classes. Those are the result of the crossing of Asian and European roses. Many of them retain the OGR look, but their Asian genes would make it more likely you'd have some success with them--though you may have blackspot issues as Malcolm suggests.


clipped on: 03.18.2009 at 07:41 pm    last updated on: 03.18.2009 at 07:41 pm

RE: Gallicas for south Florida? (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: malcolm_manners on 03.10.2009 at 08:08 pm in Antique Roses Forum

In Lakeland, which gets far more chilling than you would get, we grew a number of Gallicas for about 4 years. As others here have said, they grow, but they never bloom. Camaieux -- a rose I just "had" to have -- 2 flowers in one cluster, in year 4! Not even an attempt otherwise. Then it died.

For the old European look, try Marchesa Boccella, Comte de Chambord, and/or Salet. All grow and flower well in the Fort Lauderdale area. You will have to spray them regularly, since they are black spot and mildew magnets, but they will bloom. Oh, also, Stanwell Perpetual. Most of the other old European roses simply can't deal with the warmish winters.

Rose de Rescht also reblooms well (needs LOTS of spraying!).

Maggie (likely a Bourbon), 'Souv. de la Malmaison' and it's sports (Bourbons) do really well, and have an old European look to them, although not particularly like Gallicas. Really, there's nothing much else that looks like the Gallicas. Of all the Hybrid Chinas we've grown (Gallica blood in them), we've had no success at all, blooming them, ever. I should say, though, that we've not tried many.


clipped on: 03.18.2009 at 07:40 pm    last updated on: 03.18.2009 at 07:41 pm

RE: Bracteata Hybrids for Florida? (Follow-Up #7)

posted by: malcolm_manners on 03.17.2009 at 05:17 pm in Antique Roses Forum

We had Mermaid at least 5 years. So it was fully mature. But it never was a good repeater.

And yes, nematodes like dry, light, sandy soils best of all!

Sweetheart rose -- that reminds me of some of the roses that are in groups where one would not expect resistance, but which have it anyway. So I'll add to my list. These can be grown easily, on their own roots, in Miami:

Cecile Brunner (the sweetheart rose)
Spray Cecile Brunner -- both of these will repeat almost constantly.

Crepuscule -- excellent repeat, moderate climber.

Tausendschoen -- easy and carefree. once-blooming, but the "once" in Lakeland is mid-November through early May, so I can accept that! It would be a shorter season in Miami, but as long as nights are cool, it will keep blooming.


clipped on: 03.18.2009 at 07:39 pm    last updated on: 03.18.2009 at 07:39 pm

RE: Bracteata Hybrids for Florida? (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: trospero on 03.17.2009 at 01:34 pm in Antique Roses Forum

I would think that the Moore Hybrid Bracteatas would thrive in Florida's climate as long as they could cope with the Nematode problem. Ideally you should be grafting most everything to Fortuniana roots. I would think 'Pink Powderpuff' might be a great rose in Fl.


on barden website
clipped on: 03.17.2009 at 02:11 pm    last updated on: 03.17.2009 at 02:15 pm

RE: A list of heavy bloomers that are No Spray? (Follow-Up #11)

posted by: cweathersby on 01.31.2009 at 07:23 pm in Antique Roses Forum

La Reine is the only one I have from your list. It is neither disease resistant or a heavy bloomer.
Best no spray roses in my garden (I, like you, got rid of lots of roses this year because of disease resistance - but there are lots of roses still in my garden!):
Cramosi Superior
Prarie Harvest
Archduke Charles
Mary Washington
Jean Bach Sisley
Maggie (I have heard of others having disease on this one-but mine is great)
Crocus Rose (an Austin, go figure)
Allister Stella Gray
Etoile de Lyon
Madame Berkely
Madame Lombard
M. F. Kruger
Renae (vigorous and healthy climber)

I've got lots of 1 1/2 year old baby roses that look good so far, but I just gave you the list of ones that I KNOW are healthy and bloom a lot. Our climates should be almost identical.
I promise that these are only the best of the best! I left out a lot of roses that were good enough to keep in my garden!
Nastarana doesnt' have great disease resistance in my garden. Not bad, but not good enough.


clipped on: 02.12.2009 at 07:09 am    last updated on: 02.12.2009 at 07:10 am

RE: A list of heavy bloomers that are No Spray? (Follow-Up #14)

posted by: rjlinva on 02.01.2009 at 06:09 am in Antique Roses Forum


Here is a list of some roses that I consider to be good bloomers and rather disease resistant. I must add, however, that my tolerance for blackspot and leaf loss is much higher than others. Definitely consider any suggestions that Olga makes, as her expectations and experience far exceed mine. Yes, I'm teaching, but I don't teach during the summer, and I don't spray. My roses have to be tough.

Here are some in no special order. Also, some are moderns.

Olivier Roellinger
Benjamin Britten
SDLM/Mystic Beauty
Clair Matin
Etoile de Lyon
Ghislaine de Feligonde (several flushes after first)
The Alexandra Rose
Lyda Rose
Darlow's Enigma
Carefree Beauty
Comtesse du Cayla
Cramoisi Superieur
Teasing Georgia
Apricot Nectar
Caldwell Pink
Glacier Magic
Pretty Lady
Climbing Pinkie
Black Prince (a few flushes)
Earth Song
Viking Queen
White Cap
Red Cascade
Reve d'Or
Desprez a Fleures Jaune
Tutta's Pink Noisette
Mrs. Woods Lavendar Noisette
Clotilde Soupert
Perle d'Or
Amanda Patenaude (aka Joasine Hanet)
Jaques Cartier
Sarah van Fleet
Belinda's Dream
Carefree Sunshine
Isabella Sprunt
Mme. Antoine Mari
Mrs. Dudley Cross
Rosette Delizy

This list does not include any of the once bloomers. I have hundreds of once bloomers (gallicas, albas, centifolias, ramblers, speies, etc). A rose garden is NOT complete without once bloomers. I try to keep a balance of at least 30% of my roses being once bloomers. I expect big things from once bloomers in spring; I expect big things from the Teas, Chinas, Noisettes in the heat of summer; and I expect big things from my hybrid musks in the autumn. I'm planting camellias for late fall/winter/early spring interest.

Also, my roses are still quite young. Some of those listed above, may come off this list in the future. For example, Paprika is a new rose, but it is showing absolutely NO sign of disease. Watercolors is similar to Paprika.

I hope this helps someone.



clipped on: 02.12.2009 at 07:08 am    last updated on: 02.12.2009 at 07:09 am