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RE: Other Moisture Barriers Besides Kerdi for Shower (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: mongoct on 06.06.2010 at 01:40 pm in Bathrooms Forum

All my opinion.

There are two basic families of waterproofing membranes for showers. I'll use my own wording and refer to one as "traditional" and the other as "topical".

A traditional shower base would have the waterproofing membrane buried somewhere in the floor or wall. Working up from subfloor to tile, has a slip sheet, then expanded diamond mesh, then a deck mud preslope, then a relatively thick 40-mil (or so) membrane, usually CPE (chlorinated polyethylene) or CPVC (chlorinated polyvinylchloride). It's crucial that the membrane go on top of a sloped surface so that the membrane itself is sloped. On top of the membrane will be the tiling bed which is another thickness of deck mud, then thinset and tile.

You can see this on Harry Dunbar's site.

With that "traditional" base, you'll have traditional walls. Wood framing, then a waterproofing or drainage membrane (lapped tar paper or 6-mil poly sheeting) over the framing, then cement board over that, then thinset and tile.

So that's "traditional".

"Topical" would be having the membrane on the face or front side of the material that's to be tiled on instead of behind it, buried in the wall or buried in the floor. The advantage of topical is that all that can really get wet is the tile and the thinset. In a traditional shower the tile, thinset and cement board can get wet in the walls, or the tile, thinset, and deck mud tiling bed can get wet in the floor.

Both methods are fine, but topical does allow for better moisture control. My opinion.

Topical can be a fabric-covered tile-on sheet membrane like Kerdi or Nobel.

Topical can be a roll-on or trowel-on membrane like HydroBan, RedGard, Ultraset, or any of the several others that is applied over the appropriate substrate, in the appropriate mil thickness, with the appropriate number of coatings. These membranes, I recommend going to the manufacturer's specific websites to see the appropriate backer that they can be applied to. Some need reinforcing mesh or fabric in corners and over gapped panel joints.

Topical can be a sheet material like Wediboard, KerdiBoard, or even though I'll personally never use it but since you mentioned it, Denshield, applied directly to the wood framing. With sheetgoods all fastener penetration holes and panel seams need to be appropriately waterproofed.

Outside of the shower area, to waterproof the remainder of the bathroom floor all I've been using is Ditra with Kerdi over the seams.

So for your questions:

1) I hope I detailed that above.

2) No greenboard as a tile backer in a shower or tub surround. It's a code violation. 1/2" Cement board is excellent, and it can be used as a backer for all topical membranes in a "topical" shower. Or with poly sheeting between it and the wood framing, it can be used as a tile backer in a "traditional" shower.

3) Listed above

4) Worst mistake in a "traditional shower" is the membrane going flat on the subfloor and then sloped deck mud going on top of that. Remember, a PRESLOPE had to go in first, then the traditional membrane on top of that so that the membrane is sloped. Then more mud, then tile.

Worst mistake in "topical" membrane showers is not following the manufacturer's installation instructions. Kerdi and Nobel sheet membrane are pretty much bulletproof IF you follow the manufacturer's instructions. The roll-on membranes are excellent as long as they are applied at the proper thickness and reinforcing fabric is used where specified.

With sheet good materials like Wediboard, KerdiBoard, the worst mistake is not detailing fastener heads or cut panel edges.

With Denshield, I won't comment on it as I don't to use it.


clipped on: 12.06.2010 at 05:42 pm    last updated on: 12.06.2010 at 05:42 pm

RE: How much do frameless glass shower doors cost? (Follow-Up #24)

posted by: edymoreno on 05.06.2010 at 12:22 am in Bathrooms Forum

We paid $1500 for our enclosure with Starphire glass. The sides are both 1/2" glass, and the door is 3/8". The company does all their own fabrication of the glass and tempering.


clipped on: 12.06.2010 at 05:25 pm    last updated on: 12.06.2010 at 05:25 pm

RE: How much do frameless glass shower doors cost? (Follow-Up #16)

posted by: carydan on 04.14.2010 at 01:11 pm in Bathrooms Forum

I want to update on the shower glass price I ended paying.

3/8" clear tempered,
26"x71" shower door with 10"x71" inlining panel,
Geneva hinge and 3 chrome brackets,
8" ladder style pull,
Bulb seals,
Local customer pickup and DYI in North Carolina,
$825 including tax.

What I found out is that if you stick to common "stock" size for shower door, like 24", 26", 28", usually you can find it least expensive. Common glass heigh is 70", 72". They will give you the cheatest price if they happen to have one stock size that fits your shower in their shops or from their warehouses. The more they have to do, the more expensive.

It turns out that I can't do 72" height but want taller than 70", plus my shower rough-in are slightly out of square, they have to cut the glass out of square too, by 1/8" on one side. The shower is in the newly added third floor attic bath.

The online venders I inquired are Wilson Glass and Gasparilla Glass (on eBay, thanks for the recommendation from Stacie!). Both seem good places. Gasparilla is eager to work with me and nice communication, have very good price but tried to convince me to go with 70" height hesitated to cut the door out of square, with shipping they quoted $550. Wilson glass probably does tons of online business, the rep has to wait a few days to get back with me on the quote - $675. They use one of the nearby fabricator in Greensboro and use computer software to design the shower door size for you after you email them your opening size. Their web size is by far the most helpful and even has a youtube video on the installation process. However I have to drive one hour to pick it up myself.

I ended buying from a local glass shop Glass Depots USA. Their original quote was $1300 but after I talked with the owner and armed with online quotes printout, he agreed the price of $825 all inclusive(hardware, tax etc).

I asked about starphire but was told to expect to pay $400 more. I chose the regular 3/8" temper glass, sure, there is a tint of green but it actually looks fine in the color scheme for the room.

I have a GC that is doing my attic renovation. He and I spent almost 4 hours to install the glass ad the panel. He was more nervers than I but in the looks pretty nice...


clipped on: 12.06.2010 at 05:23 pm    last updated on: 12.06.2010 at 05:23 pm

RE: What foods are cheaper to make at home? (Follow-Up #36)

posted by: grainlady on 11.09.2008 at 02:36 pm in Money Saving Tips Forum

jenica -

I'd love sharing the recipe. It's my friend, Mildred's, recipe (which I've tweaked). It's the best 100% whole wheat bread recipe I've ever made, and I've tried LOTS of recipes over the years. I make the dough in a Zojirushi bread machine, but it can be made by hand, as well. I believe the difference is using the sponge method rather than the quicker direct dough method.

I add the ingredients to the bread pan in the bread machine and let it work for 5-10 minutes on the dough cycle (until it's well blended). Unplug the bread machine and with the lid shut, let the sponge set AT LEAST 2-1/2-hours. Now that's it cooler in the kitchen, I let it sit overnight, or 8-12-hours. OR, you can mix the ingredients in a bowl and cover with plastic wrap.)
3/4 c. warm buttermilk (I always use homemade kefir)
3/4 c. barely warm water
2-1/2 c. freshly-milled whole wheat flour
1/4 t. ascorbic acid (a must-use ingredient *see below)
2 t. instant yeast (I use SAF-Instant.)

Next morning, stir into sponge (with a spatula):
2 T. vegetable oil or butter (I use coconut oil.)
2 T. honey (I use agave nectar)
1 egg
(I also add 1/3-1/2 c. chia jel - warm the chia jel, coconut oil, agave nectar to luke warm and add the egg to the mixture and then add it to the sponge. Chia gel is a mixture of chia seeds and water 1/3 c. chia seeds to 2 cups water - stir - soak the seeds 8-10 hours before use - mix will last 3-5 days, refrigerated. Chia gel is a "secret" ingredient in my homemade breads that helps keep the crumb soft and fresh - even a week after baking. The seeds look like poppy seeds in the bread.)
Add to the top of the sponge (in the bread machine - or mix into the sponge in the bowl if making by hand):
2-1/4 c. flour
2 t. salt (on the top)
(I also add 2-3 T. flaxmeal.)
Set machine on dough cycle.
Here's where Mildred and I differ, and we both end up with big beautiful loaves. She lets the bread rise in the bread machine on the dough cycle (we both have a Zojirushi). I don't trust the bread machine when it comes to the rise of bread because it's timed (and what does a machine know about "double"), so as soon as the machine is done kneading, I slap the dough into a 2-quart dough rising bucket with the lid on. This recipe yields about 1-quart of dough and I let it rise to just UNDER 2-quarts - whole wheat dough doesn't have the extensibility that white flour dough has, so don't let it go to "double".
Punch down, divide, round the dough into balls and let it sit, covered, for 10-15 minutes to allow the gluten strands to relax.
Form (I form my dough on a Silpat - no bench flour necessary - and handle the dough with oiled hands; pan the dough in greased pans, cover with plastic wrap and allow to rise. Bake in a preheated oven - anywhere between 350 and 375.
I usually make 2 loaves from the dough (8-1/2x4-1/2-inch loaf pans) - bake 375F for 25-30 minutes (or until around 195 - 200F when checked with an instant read thermometer).
For 3 small loaves - bake 350F for 20-25 minutes (same temperature for doneness).

*I add ascorbic acid (aka Vitamin C powder) to all yeast breads that include whole wheat flour or wheat germ. There is a substance in the wheat germ called Glutathione, which breaks down the gluten (hence - short loaves of whole wheat bread). By adding ascorbic acid powder (1/8 t. per loaf) in your dough, you will help to counteract the negative effects of Glutathione. Ascorbic acid will not only help prevent the gluten bonds from breaking down; but will help repair gluten bonds that have already been broken. Ascorbic acid helps sustain the leavening of the bread loaves during baking. It promotes yeast growth causing the yeast to work longer and faster in the acidic atmosphere. Do not add ascorbic acid to sourdough bread dough because it is naturally an acidic atmosphere and additional acid is not necessary.



oooh! bread!
clipped on: 01.10.2009 at 12:28 am    last updated on: 01.10.2009 at 12:29 am

RE: backsplash sq ft price? (Follow-Up #11)

posted by: brunosonio on 12.28.2007 at 11:31 am in Kitchens Forum

Kirstysea...sure! Go to Ballard Sheetmetal Works, down by the docks in Ballard (near the Fred Meyer's). They service the Alaska fishing fleets. When you walk in, they have a whole wall of SS samples...thicknesses and finishes. They will cut a piece of your choosing to within 1/16", I think. They burr the edges, instead of rolling them (you want it to lie flat to the wall).

If you want something thicker or want it to wrap around a wood core, than can roll or fold the edges for you...they basically will make anything you want. They can even make metal shelves.

The standard is a brushed #4 to match most SS appliance finishes, but there are other finishes if you want. And they can burr in designs or patterns (check out the wild diagonal burrs that look like an underwater seaweed bed!).


clipped on: 01.28.2008 at 08:00 pm    last updated on: 01.28.2008 at 09:27 pm

RE: Costco Granite, Quartz, Corian? (Follow-Up #10)

posted by: happykate on 12.20.2007 at 11:43 pm in Kitchens Forum

The Seattle area is still doing FineLine Pacific. It you're there, I wouldn't hesitate; I had concerns, dealt directly with the owner, and am quite happy.


clipped on: 01.24.2008 at 01:24 pm    last updated on: 01.24.2008 at 01:24 pm

RE: your granite name (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: natesgramma on 10.10.2007 at 01:55 pm in Kitchens Forum

Madagascar Gold but I can't find it anywhere on the web except for the place I purchased it.
Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket


clipped on: 01.13.2008 at 12:55 am    last updated on: 01.13.2008 at 12:55 am

RE: gas line placement for slide-inrange? (Follow-Up #3)

posted by: yaknakterry on 08.01.2007 at 11:36 pm in Kitchens Forum

This one is critical. I went from an electric range to a dual fuel. I handed the specs for the gas line installation to the plumber and they put the gas line in the perfect spot so the range could slide back all of the way. I handed the electricians their specs. They said I could just reuse my old electric plug-in. Sounded great, but, when they pushed the stove back the plug was right behind one of the legs so it wouldn't go back all of the way. Electricians had to come out and move the electric line over which meant dropping a new line down through the attic.


gas line installation. get specs from appliance people to find out were to pull the line through
clipped on: 08.22.2007 at 02:48 am    last updated on: 08.22.2007 at 02:49 am

RE: Best advice from this forum (Follow-Up #32)

posted by: evergreendan on 07.20.2007 at 06:55 am in Kitchens Forum

Bluestar range -- had never heard of it before and wouldn't have found it at a regular appliance store. Bought from Eurostoves (local to me) after cooking on it.

Wide / shallow cabinet for William Sonoma ultra-thin step stool. My cabinets go to the 8' ceiling, so I think I'll need this more than in my last kitchen.

Sticking to my vision, but updating my inspiration photo (great feedback from this forum).

GC myself. Just remember that you aren't a repeat customer with your subs, so be prepared for others customers to jump in line in front of you.

Airswitch on disposer. Never minded the wall switch, but now that I have a nice backsplash and an island, its great.

Floodstop on icemaker and washing machine.

And I got the idea from a TV show, rather than this forum, but I put power into the back of 4 drawers, so each family member has a place to charge the cell phone (or camcorder or whatever) out of sight.

I also have a false panel behind a niche so that the power / wallwarts / phone wire / wireless access point is hidden. Only the phone sits out exposed. Similar to the idea above, but using depth.


lots of neat little ideas
clipped on: 08.22.2007 at 02:36 am    last updated on: 08.22.2007 at 02:36 am

RE: What the $#&! am I supposed to do with this 6'' base cabinet (Follow-Up #44)

posted by: lisaskitchen on 07.27.2007 at 02:15 pm in Kitchens Forum

Sorry about your problems...

Your kitchen is gorgeous!! Where did you get your pendant lights?


all about PPO pantry pullouts - small ones
clipped on: 08.21.2007 at 05:03 am    last updated on: 08.21.2007 at 05:04 am

RE: A little OT but what kind of SS coffee pot do you have? (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: amcofar on 08.20.2007 at 10:02 pm in Kitchens Forum

I have a Capresso. I love it. I have had it since 2005. It brews great coffee into a stainless steel, thermal carafe. I got mine on eBay.

Here is a link that might be useful: My favorite coffeemaker


clipped on: 08.21.2007 at 01:12 am    last updated on: 08.21.2007 at 01:12 am

RE: Does anyone have a steam shower? (Follow-Up #2)

posted by: va_rosemary on 12.30.2006 at 06:34 am in Bathrooms Forum


Besides the sloping of the ceiling, the liner and the attachment of the liner around the drain area, what other things should we make sure that the tile installer knows about? We are building a new home and the tiler has put in steam showers before, but I want to be able to "grill" him and the builder so I can avoid any potential problems.



steam shower
clipped on: 08.18.2007 at 01:39 pm    last updated on: 08.18.2007 at 01:39 pm

RE: Does anyone have a stainless backsplash? (Follow-Up #1)

posted by: brunosonio on 07.04.2007 at 02:07 pm in Kitchens Forum

We have a SS backsplash with our Wolf rangetop and hood. Had it custom made at a metal fabricator shop for only $98. I'm not sure where your Viking backsplash's screw holes are, and how far you tuck the backsplash behind the range and hood.

I didn't want a screwheads to show so I glued mine to the drywall using Liquid Nail's high heat/metal glue product (available at HD). I then propped it into place with several wood braces to hold it until the glue dried, then installed the appliances. I had it fabricated to extend about 2 inches down behind the rangetop and 2 inches up behind the hood for a seamless install, and to avoid any grease collecting areas.


clipped on: 07.08.2007 at 02:09 am    last updated on: 07.08.2007 at 02:09 am

RE: Stainless backsplash behind range? (Follow-Up #5)

posted by: brunosonio on 06.10.2007 at 03:45 pm in Kitchens Forum

I second the "what?", LOL. I put one in behind our Wolf rangetop and hood, love it. It cleans up easier than anything out there, and only cost my $98.

If you do this, do not buy it from your appliance dealer. Go to a metal fabricator shop, have it custom made. I went to one in the part of our city (Seattle) that services the Alaska fishing fleet. They did one for me about 42" x 38" for that price. It comes with a protective plastic film on the side you want not remove this until after installation.

You also want to ask for the brushed #4 finish. That is the standard SS appliance finish.

Make sure it's about 1/8" smaller than the widest point...for us it was the Wolf 42" hood. This will give you a better transition from hood/stove to backsplash. You do not need any fancy mounting boards, unless you want a more 3D look.

I didn't want any screw or nail heads exposed, so we used one of the Liquid Nails high heat/metal products to glue it to the wall. We propped it into place with wood blocks, and taped it to the wall until it dried.

We then installed the hood and rangetop. I extended the backsplash about 2 inches behind each appliance.

For cleaning, use SS Magic. First you wash down the backsplash with a bit of Dawn and warm water to remove manufacturing oils. Then apply the SS Magic heavily, spraying it onto the soft cotton cloth, not the metal. Let it sit for about 5 minutes, then buff off, again with a soft cotton cloth, buffing in circles to spread the product evenly.

Cleanup is a breeze after this. The SS Magic leaves a protective coating...spray some SS Magic on the cloth again, then wipe the grease off. It comes off immediately with no streaking, no fuss, and no heavy buffing.

I do this once a week to clean the backsplash. We do very heavy sauteeing and wok cooking, so there is grease everywhere, but the backsplash still looks completely new.

We love the SS backsplash...the rest of the kitchen is heavy on unstained cherry cabinets and wood floor, so all that SS doesn't look cold and clinical. And it's well lit from the light of the hood.


Stainless steel backsplash get it from metal fabricator- contact this person
clipped on: 07.07.2007 at 10:36 pm    last updated on: 07.07.2007 at 10:36 pm