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Part Deux (Follow-Up #9)
posted by: mongoct on 06.26.2008 at 02:30 am in Bathrooms Forum Part Deux:
Controls and Diverters In general… You need a volume and temperature control. You can buy just the valve body, which is the chunk of expensive brass that gets buried in the wall, and buy a separate trim kit, or you can buy a package that includes the valve body and the trim kit. The trim kit is the bright sparkly metallic knob/lever/escutcheon bling that you overspend for so your friends and neighbors will go "oooooh" and "aaaaah". If you buy a pressure balanced valve, the valve in and of itself will turn on the water and allow you to control the temperature. If you buy a thermostatic valve, most valve bodies have two controllers on them, one to control volume and one to control temperature. Read the fine print though, because some thermostatic bodies just control temperature. You’ll need a separate valve body to provide volume control. Stops. Some valves come with "stops" some do not. What are stops? Stops stop water flow at the valve itself so the valve can be taken apart without having to turn the water off to that branch circuit or to the whole house. They are normally incorporated onto the hot and cold water inlets on the valve body, and they can be opened or closed with a screw driver. While I’m on this, I’ll also mention that some valves might mention having a "stop screw" to limit the maximum temperature. While a pressure balancing or a thermostatic valve will prevent you from being scalded if someone flushes a toilet, there is nothing to prevent someone from being scalded by setting the valve to allow 130 degree water to pass through it. Your first step is to lower the temperature on your water heater to about 120 degrees. For valves that have these stop screws, it’s then a simple matter of setting a screw that limits how far the temperature knob can be rotated. What you do is rotate the knob to set the water to the max temp that you’d ever want out of the shower, then you turn the set screw until it bottoms out. It will now prevent the temperature knob from turning past (hotter than) it’s existing position. Downstream of that volume/temp control is where things get dicey. You can have a simple setup where your V/T control just runs to a single shower head. Easy to do. You can have a standard tub setup with a shower head and a tub spigot, where the diverter can be a lever or push button that sends water either to the tub spigot below or to the shower head above. Also easy to do. If you want to supply water to more than one shower head, to a shower head and body sprays, or to both, either simultaneously or one at a time, then you’ll need more chunks of expensive brass to bury in your wall. If you want separate controls and the ability to have differing temperatures come out of differing fixtures, then it’s easiest to go with multiple V/T controllers. One V/T controller for the shower heads, for example, and a separate V/T controller for the body sprays. This allows you to run different volumes and different temperatures out of the different heads. Your shower head can be 105 degrees and your body sprays 110 degrees. Remember, the more hot water that you want to come out of your shower, the larger your supply tubing and valve bodies need to be, and the larger your water heater has to be. For sizing purposes, most shower heads and body sprays have a gallon per minute rating applied to them. In theory and planning only, if your hand held shower head is, for example, rated at 3gpm, your rain shower head rated at 4gpm, and each of your 8 body spray heads is rated at 1gpm, and you want to run them all at the same time…you’re looking at a flow of 15gpm. You need a water heater that can supply you with 15gpm of hot water, then you need supply tubing that can get 15gpm of hot water from your water heater to your bathroom, and you need valve/diverter bodies that can pass the required amount of water through them so you get decent flow out of each fixture. Typical plumbing is 1/2", typical valves are 1/2". For high volume situations, 3/4" tubing and 3/4" supply valves may be required. Out of the valves you can usually run 1/2" tubing to your shower heads and body spray heads. Back to the hardware. If you want a shower head and body sprays, and want to run either or both off of one valve, then you’ll want a diverter valve. Diverter valves can be anything and everything. They can be simple A/B valves, where you can run the water through the valve to only "A", your shower head, or only to "B", your body spray heads. But not both at the same time. Which leads to the A/B/AB valve, where you can send water only to "A", your shower head, or only to "B", your body spray heads, or to "AB", simultaneously to both. And from here things go wild. There are A/B/C/AB/AC/BC/ABC valves, and things just can go on and on from there. Diverter valves are usually described as having a certain number of "ports". 3-port, 4-port, 5-port, etc. Realize that one port is where the water goes in to the valve, the other ports are where the water comes out. So an A/B/C valve that has three outlets might be listed as a "4-port valve", with the fourth port being the inlet. Not all 4-port valves can do A/B/C/AB/AC/BC/ABC, you’ll need to look through the description to find out where it can send the water to. A 4-port valve might just be an A/B/C valve, or it might be a more versatile A/B/C/AB/AC/BC valve. Read its description. If you can’t get the customization you need from a single volume/temperature controller and a single diverter, you can run multiple diverters off of one V/T controller, or multiple diverters off of multiple V/T controllers. It all depends on how much brass you can afford, how much water you can supply, and if you have the space to hide all that brass in your walls. Diverters can be knobs, levers, push buttons, the choice is yours. But do remember that you need to match up the valve body to the desired trim kit so that the bling that your neighbors can see will fit on the expensive chunk of brass that they can’t see. You don’t want your plumber to bury that expensive chunk of brass in your wall, then tile, then find out later that your bling won’t fit. Very depressing. It’s all about reading the fine print. Mongo NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 02.01.2013 at 05:16 pm last updated on: 02.01.2013 at 05:16 pm
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RE: FAQ/Answers Bathroom Plumbing for dummies (Follow-Up #8)
posted by: mongoct on 06.25.2008 at 09:07 pm in Bathrooms Forum Let me know if this is the sort of info you're looking for, if it's too basic, or not inclusive enough. It's a rough first draft and can be edited as required:
The sort of where, what, and why of pressure-balanced versus thermostatic: If you are using the shower and a toilet is flushed, as the toilet uses cold water to refill the tank, the pressure in the cold water line drops a bit below what it was when just the shower was running. If you had a non-balancing valve, you’d still get the same amount of hot water that you originally were getting, but with the drop in pressure in the cold water line you’d have less cold water coming out of your shower head, creating a potential for scalding. Vice-versa, if someone turns on a hot-water faucet elsewhere in the house, the hot water pressure drops and you get a shower of mostly cold water. A pressure-balanced shower valve is designed to compensate for changes in water pressure. It has a mechanism inside that moves with a change in water pressure to immediately balance the pressure of the hot- and cold-water inputs. These valves keep water temperature within a couple degrees of the initial setting. They do it by reducing water flow through either the hot or cold supply as needed. Because pressure balanced valves control the temp by reducing the flow of water through the valve, if your plumbing supply is already struggling to keep up with the three shower heads and nine body sprays that you have running in your shower, if a pressure balancing valve kicks in and chokes down the water supply to keep you from getting scalded you could end up with insufficient water flow out of the heads in a multiple shower head setup. When it comes to volume control, in terms of being able to turn on the water a little or a lot, for the most part pressure-balanced valves are full-on when water is flowing or full-off when the valve is closed. Flow-wise, think of them as having no middle ground. Where flow and volume control are important, as in a shower that requires a high volume of water, a thermostatic valve may be the better choice. They also control the temperature, but they do not reduce the amount of water flowing through the valve in doing so. Thermostatic valves are also common with 3/4" inlets and outlets, so they can pass more water through the valve than a 1/2" pressure balancing valve. Which should you choose? If you want individual control and wanted multiple valves controlling multiple heads, then you could use multiple 1/2" valves instead of one 3/4" valve and all would be just fine. What do the controls on the valve actually control? A thermostatic valve can be all inclusive in terms of control (volume and temp) or just be temperature controlling. If it’s just temperature controlling, you will need a separate control for volume or flow. Example, with an all inclusive you’ll have two "controllers" (knobs or levers) on the valve, one to set the temperature and a separate one to set the volume. In this case you can set the temp as you like it, then use the volume control lever to have just a trickle of Goldilocks water come out of the valve, or you can open it up and have full flow of Goldilocks water coming out of the valve. You can leave the temp where you like it when you turn the volume off after you’re done showering. The next time you shower, turn the volume on, the temperature is already set. Some thermostatic valves are just temperature valves with no volume control. You’ll need another valve/control to set the volume. Read the product description carefully to see what you're getting. What size valve should I get? Is one better than another? Will I suffer with a pressure-balancing valve? If you are remodeling, if you have your existing sink running and you flush the toilet and notice a drop in volume coming out of the sink, then a thermostatic valve might be the better choice even if you're not having a multi-head setup installed. If, as part of the remodel, you plan on running new supply lines through your house to the new bath, then properly sized runs will take care of that flow restriction and you can probably do a pressure balancing valve instead of a thermostatic. So in a house with tricky plumbing, or with a restricted water supply, or with multiple outlets running off of one supply valve, a thermostatic valve might be the safer choice. Mongo NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 02.01.2013 at 05:15 pm last updated on: 02.01.2013 at 05:16 pm
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RE: Best and worst decisions you made when renovating (Follow-Up #2)
posted by: williamsem on 06.29.2012 at 09:39 pm in Bathrooms Forum Ours was a quick decision remodel too, but I still did a bunch of quick research. Not nearly my normal amount, but I had to sleep too :-)
Like: Would do different I'm pretty happy overall, not bad for about one week notice. Should be able to see most, if not all, of these in the pics below. NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 01.05.2013 at 11:26 pm last updated on: 01.05.2013 at 11:26 pm
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Almost Finished Pics - long time coming...
posted by: aokat15 on 02.09.2012 at 02:59 pm in Kitchens Forum I'm still waiting to finish up some small details - such as having my potfiller installed - but I thought I'd post my almost finished pics. I've posted some pics along the way, but here is where we're at now. It's been almost 2 years since we purchased our home and we are slowly coming to the end of a long whole house renovation and addition. Gardenweb has been an amazing source for inspiration and guidance - thanks for all of your help along the way. Let me know if you want any info.
To the right of my refrigerator is an oversized walk-in pantry. There are temporary shelves in there now... someday soon we'll have cabinets and nice shelving and I'll share those pics as well :) NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 11.17.2012 at 10:57 am last updated on: 11.17.2012 at 10:57 am
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RE: Two Person Shower (Follow-Up #2)
posted by: mydreamhome on 02.05.2012 at 02:11 am in Bathrooms Forum Here's ours. We opted for the second shower head to be a handshower on a slide bar so it was more versatile. If only one of us is in there, we can get the whole spa experience by turning on the main shower head, aiming the handheld toward the bather & turning on the overhead raincan (not shown). Our shower is 4'x7' and doorless.
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clipped on: 10.24.2012 at 09:18 am last updated on: 10.24.2012 at 09:18 am
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RE: Room for doorless shower here? (Follow-Up #3)
posted by: terriks on 10.05.2008 at 11:27 am in Bathrooms Forum If that's the space you have for just the shower, then yes. Here is the floorplan of my doorless shower:
The blue represents the size of the standard shower in our old house. The total space taken up by the shower is about 7' x 5.5' NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 10.24.2012 at 08:55 am last updated on: 10.24.2012 at 08:55 am
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Pictures of an almost finised kitchen...just needs the frosting!
posted by: abfabamy on 05.06.2012 at 04:49 pm in Kitchens Forum
NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 10.04.2012 at 07:50 pm last updated on: 10.04.2012 at 07:51 pm
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What I did on my Labor Day weekend...
posted by: abfabamy on 09.03.2012 at 05:52 pm in Kitchens Forum
NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 10.04.2012 at 07:50 pm last updated on: 10.04.2012 at 07:51 pm
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RE: max. sink size in 30' base (Follow-Up #6)
posted by: laurie_2008 on 08.02.2011 at 10:37 pm in Kitchens Forum Our 16 guage ss undermount single bowl sink is 30" x 18" x 9" (28" x 16" bowl size) and our cabinet is 30". The sink cost $238 from home center . com a little over 3 years ago. We have been very happy with it!
My husband is an engineer and very concerned with "modifying" structures of any kind for fear of weakening or lowering their strength. He did end up cutting out a portion of the sink base (see pics below) and feels that the sink base is still very sound/sturdy. In the picture below, the left side of the sink base has been cut "notched out". Then, we notched out the right side NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 12.01.2011 at 11:26 am last updated on: 12.01.2011 at 11:27 am
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Granite saga! (Follow-Up #6)
posted by: christine40 on 11.16.2011 at 05:00 pm in Kitchens Forum
NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 11.17.2011 at 06:24 am last updated on: 11.17.2011 at 06:24 am
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RE: Major kitchen remodel--Long and Pic heavy (Follow-Up #25)
posted by: Bellsmom on 11.05.2011 at 11:11 pm in Kitchens Forum
NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 11.05.2011 at 11:52 pm last updated on: 11.05.2011 at 11:53 pm
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RE: Basic 'rules' for placement of lights? (Follow-Up #1)
posted by: davidtay on 10.30.2011 at 11:14 am in Lighting Forum
NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 11.01.2011 at 07:21 pm last updated on: 11.01.2011 at 07:21 pm
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Lighting in cabinets with glass doors
posted by: SadieV on 10.30.2011 at 09:49 am in Kitchens Forum
NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 10.30.2011 at 10:14 am last updated on: 10.30.2011 at 10:14 am
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RE: White subway or color to go with granite cherry cabinets (Follow-Up #12)
posted by: kittenkat_2002 on 10.26.2011 at 09:45 am in Kitchens Forum
NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 10.28.2011 at 06:15 pm last updated on: 10.28.2011 at 06:15 pm
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RE: Am I the only one.... (Follow-Up #55)
posted by: Luv2Laf on 10.14.2011 at 05:19 pm in Kitchens Forum krmanda and AnnaC54,
Thanks for the nudge I needed to get my 'almost finished' kitchen posted. Now, I need the final nudge to finish up the punch list and call it done! :) Here is a link that might be useful: Almost Finished Alder, Silestone and Granite Kitchen NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 10.27.2011 at 01:13 pm last updated on: 10.27.2011 at 01:13 pm
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Where is that 'What I learned on GW' thread
posted by: beekeeperswife on 10.25.2011 at 08:17 pm in Kitchens Forum
NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 10.26.2011 at 08:02 pm last updated on: 10.26.2011 at 08:02 pm
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Kitchen finally done after more than 3 years!
posted by: ni_2006 on 09.05.2011 at 08:57 pm in Kitchens Forum
NOTES: corner stove
clipped on: 10.24.2011 at 09:50 pm last updated on: 10.24.2011 at 09:51 pm
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RE: Granite fabricator recommendation in SE Michigan??? (Follow-Up #3)
posted by: christine40 on 10.24.2011 at 07:48 am in Kitchens Forum I used granite planet in livonia for a bathroom this summer, he was great, very reasonably priced! For our kitchen redo our Gc uses ultimate granite in Redford.....both granite yards I went to (Dwyer and TM) said he's great! Best of luck...
NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 10.24.2011 at 08:49 am last updated on: 10.24.2011 at 08:49 am
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RE: Granite fabricator recommendation in SE Michigan??? (Follow-Up #1)
posted by: stayaloft on 10.23.2011 at 09:10 pm in Kitchens Forum I'm in Plymouth, Mi. Without a doubt I'd recommend Phoenix. I chose the slabs at Mont Granite and turned it over to Phoenix from there. Carlo and his guys did a great job for me. The templating was precise and the installation was done without a hitch. I was impressed. I have a zero radius sink and I wanted the sink cut out to be flush. It was absolutely spot on perfect! The guys were real gentelmen and did a fine job. 313-712-6500
NOTES: Granite guys
clipped on: 10.24.2011 at 07:40 am last updated on: 10.24.2011 at 07:40 am
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RE: What I worried about needlessly and should have worried about (Follow-Up #12)
posted by: sally123 on 10.23.2011 at 03:30 am in Kitchens Forum
NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 10.23.2011 at 03:51 pm last updated on: 10.23.2011 at 03:51 pm
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RE: Kitchen cabinets to the ceiling? (Follow-Up #4)
posted by: sally123 on 10.22.2011 at 07:06 pm in Kitchens Forum
NOTES: recessed lighting placement
clipped on: 10.22.2011 at 09:28 pm last updated on: 10.22.2011 at 09:29 pm
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led ucl diy
posted by: jem199 on 06.17.2010 at 12:19 am in Lighting Forum Instructions for LED DIY
1. Measure the inside bottoms of the front width of your cabinets, between the sides (called fences). This assumes that the upper cabinets are completely flat bottomed. 2. Create a box diagram of your pper cabinet layout on paper and include the measurements. 3. Decide how many lighting zones (circuits) you’d like (groupings with their own switch or dimmer). Decide if you want dimming in each zone. You will need a transformer and a switch for each zone. Purchase dimmable transformers and switches for the zones that require dimming. 4. If you have lighting levels in your current kitchen you like, determine the lumens (light output) of those lights to be sure you are adding similar brightness. I used the following • Incandescent are typically 14 lumens per watt. • Fluorescents are typically 60 lumens per watt. The lighting should be determined by a desired lumens per linear ft basis. The type of lighting (xenon, halogen, fluorescent, led, EL) possible could be dictated by conformance to local laws (eg - title24) FWIW, http://www.greentorch.com/LED-Strip-lights.htm has a claimed output of 83 lumens per watt. Environmental lights has their lumens here: https://www.environmentallights.com/categories/1306_2402_3417/under-cabinet-light-bars 5. Determine the lengths of lights for each cabinet. You want at least one light every 30". Many have suggested getting the widest you can for each cabinet and then putting them on a dimmer to give you the most flexibility for task and ambient lighting. You can stack two or more lightbars parallel and connect them with jumpers for more lumens over a high-task area, such as a sink. 6. For each zone, add up the volts for the lights in the zone so you can select the appropriate transformer. Add 15% to your total. Here are the conversions I used (This is specific to the environmentallights type light bar) • 15 cm = 5.9" = 1.65w • 30 cm = 11.8" = 3.3w • 60 cm = 23.6" = 6.6w • 90 cm = 35.4" = 9.9w 7. Decide where you will place your transformer(s). Transformers should be placed in a wall, but in a cabinet, basement or attic where there is circulation and you can access it, if needed. You need one transformer for each lighting zone. By code, the transformer(s) have to be in an accessible location. One transformer per lighting zone is required if independent control of each zone is required. If multiple transformers are required, you need to ensure that there is adequate electrical branch wiring to the locations where each transformer is located. The necessary switch controls need to be planned for. 8. Add your lights to your box diagram. This will help you determine the accessories needed and where to place the wires. The lights in each zone must connect to each other and each cable must reach the transformer. For new installs, you can pull the wires back through the wallboard. For existing installs, bring the cables over the tops of the cabinets. You need at least 2 mounting clips per light. You may also need seamless connectors and/or right angle cords for tight spaces between the lights and fence where the cord needs to travel to the back of the cabinet. Interconnected zones should be wired in parallel not series so that a problem in one light bar/ zone would not cause all the lights to go out. Parts List Tips specifics to this type of environmental lights type lightbar: Thanks to davidtay for this information! Be sure to watch both parts of the DIY video below. It’s shows how to wire these to household current. Here is a link that might be useful: UCL Install Video NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 10.21.2011 at 04:35 pm last updated on: 10.21.2011 at 04:35 pm
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Undercabinet lighting, help!
posted by: cherryblossom99 on 10.17.2011 at 05:59 pm in Kitchens Forum I can order cabinets, granite, faucets, appliances, but the undercabinet lighting is confusing us. The contractor will wire them all together to hide wires and there's "bottom crown moulding" to make it look nice. I am going to have 3 areas of countertop to illuminate + a frosted cabinet with glass above the microwave that needs to be lit. Previously we had a cheapo fluorescent light in our old kitchen and it has to 'warm up'; I don't like that. I want something bright but not insanely bright as the ceiling will be a 6 50-watt halogen fixture. I am not sure if I should buy the puck style, strip style, etc. LED looks tempting. I want to keep it < $150 and I'm not sure the quantity of lights to buy. (We've just spent a lot so far and I have to economize where I can.) Here's a photo of the 9x9' room...
-How many pucks or light strips should I add? Thank you so much. NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 10.19.2011 at 08:58 am last updated on: 10.19.2011 at 08:59 am
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RE: Where would you put an outlet on this island? (Follow-Up #9)
posted by: cloud_swift on 10.16.2011 at 03:16 pm in Kitchens Forum
NOTES: <none>
clipped on: 10.16.2011 at 08:36 pm last updated on: 10.16.2011 at 08:37 pm
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